Speculation on 2020 and 2021 Great Engravers Designs

[AndrewSL76]

I’m pretty sure that there are eagle eyes on the Gazette for the proclamations. Last year the announcement was in October and the release about a month later in November. We could be looking to January...lots of releases to come including the next stage of Bowie, Britannia, 2021 sets and then all the new coins already announced: Albert Hall, Robin Hood etc. Going to be in the New Year...

[westminstrel]

2 hours ago, SovCollector said:

Thanks mate, it was my first post on the forum 😬

I’m now all caught up on the Great Engravers gossip 😊

Well then welcome to the forums - you picked a terrific topic to begin with! 😎

[CadmiumGreen]

Confirming with indications and warning that The Royal Mint are having no more launches this year...January, here we come??

[westminstrel]

11 hours ago, CadmiumGreen said:

Confirming with indications and warning that The Royal Mint are having no more launches this year...January, here we come??

I thought they might release the next coin in this series in December even if they actually ship next year (since it would have to be a 2020 dated coin). Or perhaps they don’t intend for this to be an annual series but more ad hoc? Maybe 2021 will see two coins from the series? 🤔 

[westminstrel]

So it’s William Wyon’s Three Graces after all.

https://m.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3696036

[Paul]

So we got to look forward to:

.............................................

a 5kg gold 

a 3kg gold (strange!)

a 2kg gold

a 1kg gold

a 5oz gold

a 2oz gold

.............................................

a 2kg silver

a 5oz silver

a 2oz silver

.............................................

So looking at a £4,760 minimum spend to buy anything gold (the price of the last 2oz Bond coin)

Quickest sell out in history this one i think ! 

if the flippers get their snouts in the trough for this one, will it recreate the Una & Lion frenzy on the first issue  if most of the buyers who get them are flippers? 

[westminstrel]

14 minutes ago, Paul said:

So looking at a £4,760 minimum spend to buy anything gold (the price of the last 2oz Bond coin)

That is insane. 😟

[h103efa]

17 minutes ago, Paul said:

if the flippers get their snouts in the trough for this one, will it recreate the Una & Lion frenzy on the first issue  if most of the buyers who get them are flippers? 

🐬 with either big wallets or decent credit card allowances!

[Paul]

4 minutes ago, h103efa said:

🐬 with either big wallets or decent credit card allowances!

time to get a few new credit card applications in ! 

[AndrewSL76]

21 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

That is insane. 😟

True but I think what is more insane is the current price of the raw 2oz silver Una. Not even thinking about the 2oz gold!!

Still, I’m in. Long terms holds for me. Fingers crossed my internet connection holds up and there are ones available for me at point of launch! 

[Paul]

just to wet your whistles ! 

 

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/211378

"Three Graces" crown  1817   Medalist: William Wyon British

The Peluso collection of English coins reveals the extraordinary accuracy achieved by the Royal Mint late in the reign of George III (r. 1760–1820). The superiority of its coinage owed much to the introduction of steam-powered minting machinery. Only three gold specimens of the "Three Graces" crown are said to have been struck; it was never intended for general circulation. The dies were painstakingly prepared so that the matte finish of the raised areas sets them apart from the brilliantly burnished background. The trio on the reverse represents Ireland (with her attribute, the harp), Britain (with the Union flag on her shield), and Scotland (beside a thistle). They are more decently clad than the figures in Antonio Canova's marble group of the Three Graces but are manifestly inspired by them, hence the nickname. The second version of Canova's group, now shared by the National Gallery of Scotland, Edinburgh, and the Victoria and Albert Museum, London, was famous in England even before it was shipped there in 1818.

 

 

 

[Paul]

Cant help & think with the modern minting techniques etc this will be a beautiful piece.

I'll start the speculation/discussion,

Do you think it has the same potential as Una & Lion ??

Which will be the best one to single out to buy ??

What will be the next in the series ? (!) in 2021 

[BrumChris]

2 hours ago, Paul said:

Cant help & think with the modern minting techniques etc this will be a beautiful piece.

I'll start the speculation/discussion,

Do you think it has the same potential as Una & Lion ??

Which will be the best one to single out to buy ??

What will be the next in the series ? (!) in 2021 

I think that it will be stunning, they've picked a strong design. However, I'm not convinced it will do as well as Una but time will tell.

I'd say the best is the 2oz in both metals. I can see the gold potentially matching the Music Legends releases at £20,000 or so.

[MancunianStacker]

11 minutes ago, BrumChris said:

2oz in both metals

Feels like a proper coin 🪙 Just the right size 👍🏻 

[Kman]

3 hours ago, Paul said:

Cant help & think with the modern minting techniques etc this will be a beautiful piece.

I'll start the speculation/discussion,

Do you think it has the same potential as Una & Lion ??

Which will be the best one to single out to buy ??

What will be the next in the series ? (!) in 2021 

Totally depends on mintages

I can't believe they aren't looking at the resale prices of Una

I  fear the new mintages will be large removing most of the resale value 

Silver will be 5000 at least I'd bet, maybe 7500 

[Paul]

1 minute ago, Kman said:

I can't believe they aren't looking at the resale prices of Una

My RM account manager was 101% totally aware of this when i spoke to her on phone through the week 

[Lyrinn]

4 hours ago, Paul said:

just to wet your whistles ! 

 

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/211378

"Three Graces" crown  1817   Medalist: William Wyon British

The Peluso collection of English coins reveals the extraordinary accuracy achieved by the Royal Mint late in the reign of George III (r. 1760–1820). The superiority of its coinage owed much to the introduction of steam-powered minting machinery. Only three gold specimens of the "Three Graces" crown are said to have been struck; it was never intended for general circulation. The dies were painstakingly prepared so that the matte finish of the raised areas sets them apart from the brilliantly burnished background. The trio on the reverse represents Ireland (with her attribute, the harp), Britain (with the Union flag on her shield), and Scotland (beside a thistle). They are more decently clad than the figures in Antonio Canova's marble group of the Three Graces but are manifestly inspired by them, hence the nickname. The second version of Canova's group, now shared by the National Gallery of Scotland, Edinburgh, and the Victoria and Albert Museum, London, was famous in England even before it was shipped there in 1818.

 

below is from https://britanniacoincompany.com/blog/the-three-graces-william-wyon/

Beautiful and scarce, William Wyon's 1817 'Three Graces' pattern crown is a numismatic masterpiece. We investigate its origins during a tumultuous era for the Royal Mint.

Created by the renowned engraver, William Wyon, early in his decorated career with the Royal Mint, the Three Graces is both exquisite and highly collectible. Produced late in the reign of George III, this pattern coin was never circulated but has earned a reputation for its attractive and symbolic reverse. Crafted during a momentous moment in the history of British coinage, the story behind the design is a fascinating one. Today on the Britannia Coin Company blog we're investigating what makes this neoclassical design so special.

Three Graces Pattern Crown

Silver Three Graces pattern crown from the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. CC0 1.0.

Three Sisters
The obverse of this remarkable piece features a high-relief effigy of George III that is quite different from that which appears on contemporary circulating coinage. It preserves the King's distinctive features but is undeniably more flattering. The inscription reads 'GEORGIUS III 😧 G: BRITANNIARUM REX F: 😧 1817'. The engravers name appears below the truncation of the neck as 'W. Wyon'.

But is for the reverse for which this coin is remembered. Encircled by the motto 'FOEDUS INVIOLABILE' (Inviolable or Unbreakable League) stand three female figures, dressed in a classical style. The implements at their feet – a harp, a shield bearing the cross of St George and an oversized thistle – give clues as to their identities. Close examination detects further symbols in their crowns: shamrocks, roses and more thistles. These details identify the trio as representations of Ireland, England and Scotland.

England, or maybe we should call her Britannia, is perhaps the elder sister, standing taller than the other women who look at her with affection. This is an idealised representation of the union between the three nations, formed as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801. Wales is not represented here, but then that would have disrupted the neat parallel with the three charities of Greek mythology. The pattern coin certainly owes something to Antonio Canova's statue on that subject, though in the numismatic version the ladies are better dressed.

The Three Graces by Antonio Canova

The Victoria and Albert Museum and the Scottish National Gallery jointly hold one version of Antonio Canova's sculpture, The Three Graces, which depicts three daughters of Zeus: Euphrosyne, Aglaea and Thalia. CC BY-SA 3.0.

The Great Recoinage
Below the figures of the Three Graces are two additional objects which scrutiny shows to be a rudder and a palm frond. In 1817 when the coin was first minted the connotation here would be clear: the palm indicates both victory and peace and the rudder reminds us of British naval supremacy.

The Three Graces was struck in the aftermath of the Battle of Waterloo and the effective end of the Napoleonic wars. While the national mood was initially jubilant, decades of military and economic conflict had created fiscal troubles that could not be ignored. Expensive coalitions had left the national debt at more than double GDP. Trade disruptions had limited the supply of silver and copper from colonial outposts. On top of this, a bad harvest and artificially inflated corn prices were beginning to cause unrest.

The British government desperately needed to stabilise the currency. The first step in this process? The Coinage Act of 1816. Also known as Liverpool's Act, the law reintroduced silver coins and replaced the guinea (valued at 21 shillings) with a new gold sovereign (slightly lighter and valued at 20 shillings). This major turning point in monetary policy meant upheaval at the Royal Mint, then under Master of the Mint, William Wellesley-Pole. New coins would be needed fast and for their designs Wellesley-Pole turned to the circle of designers and engravers that included William Wyon.

Early Work
When William Wyon crafted the Three Graces in 1817 he was in the middle of a meteoric rise. Born in Birmingham in 1795, Wyon came from a family of medallists and engravers. When he turned 14 he became apprenticed to his father, Peter Wyon: a die engraver for Soho Mint. William's uncle, Thomas Wyon Senior, as well as his cousin, Thomas Junior, were both employed by the Royal Mint.

In his late teens, William twice won the Royal Academy's silver medal for sculpture. In 1813, when he was 18, his entry to a Society of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce competition won a gold medal and earned him considerable attention in London's art scene. His high relief depiction of Ceres, a Roman goddess of farming, was adopted by the Society for its agriculture medal.

By 1816, William was settled in the capital and confident enough in his abilities to compete for the newly created post of Second Engraver to the Royal Mint. He was appointed to the position and began work under his cousin Thomas Junior, who was then Chief Engraver. Though he already had a thriving career, William also enrolled at the Royal Academy Schools, determined to perfect his craft.

Neoclassical Style
The art world that Wyon was establishing himself in was dominated by neoclassicism. Its proponents were influenced by stories of Ancient Greece and Rome and the simple, symmetrical style they saw in artefacts, engravings and on their Grand Tours. We see evidence of this movement in the paintings of Ingres, the empire-line gowns in Jane Austen adaptions and the columned facades of great buildings of the period, like the British Museum. 

William Wyon was a pupil of one of the leading proponents of neoclassicism in Britain: John Flaxman. Flaxman was a sculptor and illustrator. His relief sculptures and works on paper had in common a clean-lined style, classical affectations and an inspiring sincerity that influenced many contemporary artists. He became a member of the Royal Academy in 1800 and was later appointed the first professor of sculpture at the Royal Academy Schools.

As one of Flaxman's students, Wyon would have learnt from his teacher that sculpture should be a

'… representation of superior natures, divine doctrines and history … assisting in the elevation of our minds towards that excellence for which they were originally intended'

Wyon would apply this principle to his medallic work, seeing coin engraving not just as a technical exercise but as a vehicle for the most noble of Enlightenment principles. His Three Graces pattern, with its classical figures and thoughtful symbolism owes much to Flaxman's style and philosophy.

John Flaxman

Sculpture of John Flaxman, William Wyon's mentor, by Musgrave Watson, University College London. Photograph by Stephencdickson, edited. CC BY-SA 4.0.

National Pride
As well as being a champion of neoclassicism, Wyon's teacher was also a patriot, proud of British art and artists. If Flaxman knew anything about it, and he likely did, he may have expected his pupil and countryman to become Chief Engraver at the Royal Mint, following the death of Wyon's cousin Thomas in 1817.

This was not to be the case, thanks to the explosive arrival in England of a Roman engraver, Benedetto Pistrucci. His masterful cameo engravings took the ton by storm and he was soon under the employ of Wellesley-Pole. It was he, rather than Wyon who was commissioned to create new portraits of George III to adorn the new sovereign.

While Pistrucci did not model the King from life and relied on others to craft dies, the bulbous face, nicknamed the Bull Head was rightfully unpopular. According to his effusive biographer, Nicholas Carlisle, Pistrucci's effigy was the impetus for Wyon to create an alternative pattern. 

Carlisle, a friend of Wyon, records that he spend his limited free time first modelling his own likeness of the monarch and, for the reverse, designed the elegant expression of national pride that we know as the Three Graces. The initial snub and Wyon's artistic dig at the Italian-born Pistrucci marked the beginning of a decades long rivalry, played out by their supporters in the London newspapers.

William Wyon - Royal Mint Great Engraver

A medallic portrait of William Wyon by his son, Leonard Charles Wyon. The elder Wyon's career with the Royal Mint lasted longer than Pistrucci's and his reputation has since become that of one of the finest engravers to work on British coinage. CC0 1.0.

Sought After
Nineteenth-century strikings of the Three Graces were pattern coins. They were minted in limited numbers to assess the proposed design and then might have been sold or gifted. Proof patterns are important to collectors because they can be a record of numismatic history. Multiple variations may be present in pattern coins, including off-metal examples and piedforts. When there is no intention of mass production, engravings do not need to be in low-relief, providing more opportunity for detail and artistry. Generally they are also scarce, increasing their value. 

Only around 50 coins with the Three Graces pattern were ever struck, and only a few of those survive. One of three known gold specimens is in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. A silver example remained in the possession of the Wyon family, only coming to the market in 1962. In a September 2014 sale by St James's Auctions, this piece achieved a price of £48,000, well above estimates and more than double the price achieved at its last sale in 2005.

In January 2020 another extant example, graded Proof 65 by NGC, sold for $156,000 (approximately £120,000). It's clear that Wyon's Three Graces pattern crown is only increasing in reputation as a masterpiece of numismatic art, the work of a truly great engraver.

Exceedingly rare gold Three Graces pattern crown from the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. CC0 1.0.

 

Annnnnnnd that's me putting in my application for overtime in the New Year...

[Paul]

Not that credit should ever be used to buy precious metals.  This "may" be the expectation (do your own due diligence of course) investments/precious metals can go up and down

To those maybe watching the pennies so close to Xmas 

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/best-0-credit-cards/

The best 0% APR " purchase " rate credit cards currently

(lifted from the above link) 

Top long-0% purchase cards for new cardholders

• Sainsbury's Bank

Joint-longest 0% period + up to £37.50 in Nectar points, 
12 months at 0%. After the 0%, it's 21.9% rep APR

• TSB    Joint-longest interest-free period, though you may be accepted and offered 15 or 10 months at 0%. 

After the 0%, it's 19.9% rep APR.  

• Virgin Money

Longest definite interest-free spending period as all accepted get the full 19mths 0%. 
It's then 21.9% rep APR after. 

• M&S Bank    Shorter 0% than the cards above but all accepted will get the full 18mths at 0%, plus it gives M&S points on spending. 

After the 0%, it's 19.9% rep APR. 

 

or you have the option to buy on an existing credit card you have and do a balance transfer to spilt the pay-off of the balance 

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/balance-transfer-credit-cards/

[MancunianStacker]

9 minutes ago, Paul said:

Not that credit should ever be used to buy precious metals.  This "may" be the expectation (do your own due diligence of course) investments/precious metals can go up and down

To those maybe watching the pennies so close to Xmas 

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/best-0-credit-cards/

The best 0% APR " purchase " rate credit cards currently

(lifted from the above link) 

Top long-0% purchase cards for new cardholders

• Sainsbury's Bank

Joint-longest 0% period + up to £37.50 in Nectar points, 
12 months at 0%. After the 0%, it's 21.9% rep APR

• TSB    Joint-longest interest-free period, though you may be accepted and offered 15 or 10 months at 0%. 

After the 0%, it's 19.9% rep APR.  

• Virgin Money

Longest definite interest-free spending period as all accepted get the full 19mths 0%. 
It's then 21.9% rep APR after. 

• M&S Bank    Shorter 0% than the cards above but all accepted will get the full 18mths at 0%, plus it gives M&S points on spending. 

After the 0%, it's 19.9% rep APR. 

 

or you have the option to buy on an existing credit card you have and do a balance transfer to spilt the pay-off of the balance 

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/balance-transfer-credit-cards/

Doh! I’ve already got all those cards 😂 

[Paul]

Try "ELFIN MARKET" bet your not with them !

https://www.elfinmarket.com/

ive been a beta tester with then past six month 

These are gonna shake up the credit card market in next few years, once they fully roll out to the masses

Credit card without the card, it is just cash to your bank without the middle man merchant fees or cash advance 30%+ APRs 

A credit pool of £2k (at the moment) and just dip in and out of it as you will/need

[watchesandwhisky]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

My RM account manager was 101% totally aware of this when i spoke to her on phone through the week 

Do you need to buy a lot to have a RM manager? how do you go about getting one? 

[Paul]

im not spending silly money with RM - it got offered to me 

https://www.royalmint.com/mintmarque/mint-marque-call-back/

that's the dept that you'll be assigned to @Madstacks

they are very good of the phone when you are speaking with someone directly, they want know how they can help you.

[watchesandwhisky]

Excellent, thank you:) 

 

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

5 hours ago, Paul said:

Cant help & think with the modern minting techniques etc this will be a beautiful piece.

I'll start the speculation/discussion,

Do you think it has the same potential as Una & Lion ??

Which will be the best one to single out to buy ??

What will be the next in the series ? (!) in 2021 

I think as has been said - it will all come down to mintage. If they put up the mintage I can still see it being a very good coin to flip but long term I don't think it'll do what the Una has done. That being said we are in crazy times where everything seems to be rising in value so as long as the crazy times continue it could have legs.

I think the 2oz size is the best bet for mainstream collectors. I doubt we'll even ever see the larger ones on general sale and I suspect the 2oz gold this time will all be sold to account holders with those of us left to hit refresh in our browsers never getting the opportunity. The demand is going to be absolutely stupid though so I'll consider myself very lucky if I come away with one silver 2oz. Certainly going to look a lot different to the first release!

Next in the series? I don't know British Coins as well as I'd like but that Gothic Crown has to feature at some point. This next release (Three Graces) has answered one question - clearly they don't mind doing two in a row from the same Great Engraver. Why not make it three?

[Paul]

Gothic Crown would be a sensible choice for its historic stats and its established collectability

When i saw this piece in MDC auction last month i thought it was fabulous - WYON again - great only because it is not mainstream and i had not seen it before. Thought it would look fab on on a 2oz gold, but 99.9% would never happen as the George III bust compliments it so well. With QEII  maybe not so good