Proof Sovereign - Can it be safely cleaned?

[GilRising]

I am not a collector or stacker of sovereigns, however, was talking generally about coins with a relative and they said they had a gold coin tucked away. Turns out it is a 1990 Proof Sovereign. 

There is one small dark spot on the reverse above the horses head, and what looks like a smudge at the rear legs. On the obverse there is quite a significant smudge/mark on the Queen’s cheek, and some spots below her chin. 

I think it has literally sat in a drawer for 30 years, so not taken care of as such. I’ve included a few photos. 

Are the marks something that can or should be cleaned? If so, what is the best way to go about it. 

 

 

 

[richatthecroft]

I can’t make out from these photos what the actual issue is- but finger prints, haze, red spot and other superficial problems can be resolved. Scratches and abrasions cannot. 
I would send for professional attention or at least someone proficient or to NGC/PCGS for Conservation.

In the meantime...

 

[MancunianStacker]

^ yes it can be safely cleaned but unless it means something to you why bother? The cost will likely outweigh the future cleaner vakue. 1990s aren’t particularly high demand coins are they?

[Seasider]

I think 1990 is one of those years which can be popular (and valuable) because that version of the  Queen's head is only available on proof sovereigns and the mintages are relatively low.  Don't let anyone tell you "its just bullion".

The obvious thing to do would be to get it conserved - which should deal with the copper spots.   What the spot over the horse's head is I don't know and maybe it is something they can't deal with.  But if you try to clean it off with a fingernail and scratch it then you will kill any premium value it may have.

[Seasider]

Just had a look at the Coin Cabinet auction results from Sunday a 1990 Sovereign graded PR69 sold for £410

[CoinStruck]

Hello, 

Definitely agree with comments above that you don’t try to clean it yourself. If you do really want to conserve it then then it to either PCGS or NGC and let them conserve and grade it. 
 

In term of value a 1990 sold at the Coin Cabinet auction on the weekend, it was graded by PCGS as PF69DCAM mad it made £410, lot 1990.

On Saturday I bought a 1990 ungraded coin from an Australian dealer for A$750 + A$9 delivery. Let’s about £380. 

[sovereignsteve]

They look like red or copper spots which really need NCS conservation. If they were finger prints or smudges they can be cleaned off yourself using organic solvents, but not to be messed with if in doubt. It is easy to drop the coin or similarly mistreat it if you're not careful.

[GilRising]

Thanks for all the great information, really useful, and good to get a rough idea on price if in good condition. Not mine at any rate, but solid information to relay back to give them a few options if they want it protected. 

[Pete]

I sold a lot of stunning proofs that would likely have got perfect grades last summer and have dozens of empty boxes and certificates to show.
Disappointingly the price I could sell for was marginal over spot or in the case of selling to HGM 97.5% of spot.
I was gutted to see that there was no value whatsoever put on proofs so just wanted to share this information.
That said this coin is nothing special so check my recent guide to cleaning a proof.
As soon as a proof has a permanent mark, or fine scratches, unless it is special, its value is bullion but someone may pay a little extra for a nicer looking coin.
Spending money on professional restoration ( I don't know the process ) plus two way shipping is unlikely to be worthwhile as you can probably purchase a replacement for less.
If selling today you might get lucky and get spot + 4% privately, a higher price on eBay but after fees and PP charges, less in your pocket.

[Chorlton]

The risk with proofs is if you accidentally get small pieces of grit or other contaminants on whatever you are trying to clean them with and scratch / damage them. They are Generally best just left as is unless it is a more sought after coin for professional cleaning or you don’t mind the risk / cost of professional cleaning even then think carefully before doing it.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Chorlton
Missed part of comment.

[sovereignsteve]

3 minutes ago, Chorlton said:

The risk with proofs is if you accidentally get small pieces of grit or other contaminants on whatever you are trying to clean them with and scratch / damage them.

On no account touch a proof with anything other than liquid.

[Chorlton]

1 minute ago, sovereignsteve said:

On no account touch a proof with anything other than liquid.

You do see some very risky cleaning guides on the internet, I just wouldn’t attempt any kind of cleaning.

[sovereignsteve]

2 minutes ago, Chorlton said:

You do see some very risky cleaning guides on the internet, I just wouldn’t attempt any kind of cleaning.

I will happily clean fingerprints and similar from proof sovs. I haven't had any untoward occurrences thus far😇

[Guest]

Gold is chemically inert to anything - except one solution.

When I was making dual-gold electrodes for sulphide detection in the lab, I used piranha solution (a mixture of hydrogen peroxide and sulphuric acid) to chemically etch away the glue, but the gold stayed intact.

Gold only dissolves in a solution known as aqua regia, a 1:3 ratio of nitric acid and hydrochloric acid, which will also dissolve platinum. 

General alcohol solutions like IPA or a 70% solution of EtOH:H2O will suffice in cleaning most noble metals. I use to electrochemically clean platinum electrodes in concentrated sulphuric acid solutions to remove any deposits on the surface.

But, with that gold proof coin (🤤😍), I would definitely send it off to get graded and cleaned professionally - no way would I attempt to clean it myself 🙈

Edited April 28, 2020 by Guest
Poor spelling... again

[MancunianStacker]

1 hour ago, C60 said:

Gold is chemically inert to anything - except one solution.

When I was making dual-gold electrodes for sulphide detection in the lab, I used piranha solution (a mixture of hydrogen peroxide and sulphuric acid) to chemically etch away the glue, but the gold stayed intact.

Gold only dissolves in a solution known as aqua regia, a 1:3 ratio of nitric acid and hydrochloric acid, which will also dissolve platinum. 

General alcohol solutions like IPA or a 70% solution of EtOH:H2O will suffice in cleaning most noble metals. I use to electrochemically clean platinum electrodes in concentrated sulphuric acid solutions to remove any deposits on the surface.

But, with that gold proof coin (🤤😍), I would definitely send it off to get graded and cleaned professionally - no way would I attempt to clean it myself 🙈

Sovereigns are not 99.99% though so there is probably copper in it too. 

[MancunianStacker]

Question is how much will it cost to conserve that coin if afterwards it might be £410? Is it worth doing . Or flog it, buy a PF70 to replace it with. Would that be cheaper to do??

If not attached to the actual coin maybe??? 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, MancunianStacker said:

Sovereigns are not 99.99% though so there is probably copper in it too. 

True - sovereigns are 22 carat and so will contain 0.916 % gold and 0.084 % of another metal, mainly copper. Any corrosive solution will definitely corrode the copper.

[Bxlsteve]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

I sold a lot of stunning proofs that would likely have got perfect grades last summer and have dozens of empty boxes and certificates to show.
Disappointingly the price I could sell for was marginal over spot or in the case of selling to HGM 97.5% of spot.
I was gutted to see that there was no value whatsoever put on proofs so just wanted to share this information.
That said this coin is nothing special so check my recent guide to cleaning a proof.
As soon as a proof has a permanent mark, or fine scratches, unless it is special, its value is bullion but someone may pay a little extra for a nicer looking coin.
Spending money on professional restoration ( I don't know the process ) plus two way shipping is unlikely to be worthwhile as you can probably purchase a replacement for less.
If selling today you might get lucky and get spot + 4% privately, a higher price on eBay but after fees and PP charges, less in your pocket.

All proof sovereigns with box and coa I find is minimum +12 - 20 over spot. I barely find cheaper. 
 

Do not hesitate to PM me any proof with coa and box that are around +4% in premium you would make my day! 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Bxlsteve

[Sovstacker]

Cleaning coins is a bad idea.

Remove some of the original finish and damage coins, so they are viewed as a major negative in the world of numismatics.

Cleaning is a factor in coins not qualifying for grading.

 

[Gordon]

If there are no scratches or damage to the coin itself and you think that all the marks and spots can be removed I would send it to numistacker as if it was to get a pf70 after conservation and grading that would be a 500 pound coin

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Bxlsteve said:

All proof sovereigns with box and coa I find is minimum +12 - 20 over spot. I barely find cheaper. 
 

Do not hesitate to PM me any proof with coa and box that are around +4% in premium you would make my day! 

You missed out last summer when I sold a lot of proof sovereigns and Britannias.
Singles and boxed sets up to the quintuple sovereign.
Some buyers weren't interested in the boxes and certificates so I still have them.
I went into Hatton Garden in London with a supermarket carrier bag full of boxed proofs to sell and was offered 98% so I handed over the coins and came home with the empty boxes because these people sell boxed sets at a nice premium and I wan't prepared to let them do that paying scrap gold prices.
When I tried to sell some of the rare date sets that have a 100% premium on dealer websites, I was offered spot price only and a couple of dealers offered me their sets for spot + 5% as they could not get rid of them. Must be different in Belgium and today of course you can easily get a few percent over spot for bullion but not 9 months ago.
I abandoned the dream of owning proof sets believing they would retain their value.
I paid 25% - 30% premium when I bought them and sold at a small profit only after gold had risen in value by 30%.

[sovereignsteve]

mainly boxed sets I seem to remember weren't they @Pete

[Bxlsteve]

Boxed sets seems to have lesser premium than boxed full sovereigns (I suppose it is a problem of price)

 

edit: it seems that double, full or even half single boxed sets have the most premium. Sets less so. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Bxlsteve

[1817Karl]

7 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

I will happily clean fingerprints and similar from proof sovs. I haven't had any untoward occurrences thus far😇

Steve. What are you using to clean proof coins?

[danmc82]

Take a look at my highly professional Gold cleaning thread 😁