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Coin Collector’s Licence, Please!


Serendipity

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In 1933, during the Great Depression, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt nationalised the gold holdings of US citizens who were compensated for what they voluntarily turned over to the government. In 1966, Britons were banned from holding more than four gold coins or from buying any new ones, unless they held a licence. Without one, you would be limited to owning just four gold coins issued after 1817. 

Harold Wilson's Government placed restrictions on the importing and holding of gold coins to prevent hoarding against inflation, with collectors required to obtain a licence from the Bank of England. After Britain left the gold standard, the pound was in free fall. This led to some people turning to overseas gold as a store of wealth.

Getting a collector’s licence wasn’t like getting a television licence though; there was no guarantee you’d get one. In fact, you had to convince a Bank of England official that you were a “true” collector, but how do you convince someone of the distinction between hoarder and collector?

As Terence Higgins, who opposed the act in the House of Commons on 13 June 1966 said: “…the question arises of whether the Bank of England is competent to evaluate whether someone is a genuine collector. Is the Bank of England sufficiently expert in this matter? It seems quite possible that some genuine collectors will be denied the right to continue as genuine collectors simply because the Bank of England happens to feel that they are not.”

And yet, the act, dubbed the “rule of four”, went through. By June 1967 some 4,847 people had submitted themselves to the Bank of England's scrutiny, and prosecutions had begun with the miscreants' metal confiscated by the authorities. The act proved ineffective as it drove gold dealing underground but still remained law for 13 years before the controls were eventually lifted as part of Margaret Thatcher’s first budget reform, in 1979.

 

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8 hours ago, Serendipity said:

1966 1979.

What happened to all the bullion/numismatic dealers in that time? 

Or were there bullion dealers? or was it more jewellers also selling coins and antique dealers also selling numismatics 

Chards say there were formed 1964, what were they doing during that time? @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer

Help thread for members new to silver/gold stacking/collecting

The Money Printing Myth the Fed can't and don't money print - Deflation ahead, not inflation 

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13 hours ago, Serendipity said:

In 1933, President Roosevelt confiscated the gold of all US citizens but it's often forgotten that in 1966 Britons were banned from holding more than four gold coins or from buying any new ones, unless they held a licence. Without one, you would be limited to owning just four gold coins issued after 1817. 

 

 

The purpose and effect of the act was not to "confiscate" gold. This is a piece of hype and misinformation peddled by many US dealers, some of whom use "bait and switch", to talk gullible rookie investors into buying overpriced pre 1933 "collectable" coins, inclusing things like French gold 20 francs, but not at bullion prices, mostly at rip-off prices, like 40% to 50% premium.

If owners continued to hold their gold coins, in about 99% of cases, nobody ever found out, and the gold was therefore never confiscated.

There are a few honest American dealers, who debunk the propaganda, including this one: https://www.cmi-gold-silver.com/gold-confiscation-1933 who I rate as one of the few good guys.
More later...

Chards

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19 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

The purpose and effect of the act was not to "confiscate" gold. This is a piece of hype and misinformation peddled by many US dealers, some of whom use "bait and switch", to talk gullible rookie investors into buying overpriced pre 1933 "collectable" coins, inclusing things like French gold 20 francs, but not at bullion prices, mostly at rip-off prices, like 40% to 50% premium.

If owners continued to hold their gold coins, in about 99% of cases, nobody ever found out, and the gold was therefore never confiscated.

There are a few honest American dealers, who debunk the propaganda, including this one: https://www.cmi-gold-silver.com/gold-confiscation-1933 who I rate as one of the few good guys.
More later...

@LawrenceChard, I defer to your better judgment on the matter and have re-edited my post: “In 1933, during the Great Depression, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt nationalised the gold holdings of US citizens who were compensated for what they voluntarily turned over to the government.”

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54 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

The purpose and effect of the act was not to "confiscate" gold. 

It will probably come in the "More later...", But was the British legislation as described or was that misinterpreted/not as stringent in reality? I know it's not the exact same thing but when they 'compensated' owners for their firearms in the UK it was common for owners to get shafted. Not only did they lose their hobby they often got a lot less £'s than the guns were actually worth. If they 'banned' gold what's stopping them doing the same thing?

Not getting found out is all well and good, but if you wanted to sell anything you'd be trading in illegal goods...

I'm just spit balling, not getting hot under the collar or anything 😁

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1 hour ago, Serendipity said:

@LawrenceChard, I defer to your better judgment on the matter and have re-edited my post: “In 1933, during the Great Depression, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt nationalised the gold holdings of US citizens who were compensated for what they voluntarily turned over to the government.”

Gold was $20.67 before the Act, but shortly after got revalued to $35.00.

Tehnically it was probable that the dollar was revalued to 1/35 gold ounces, but it amounts to the same thing.

So, yes the effect was that the USA screwed any of its citizens who did voluntarily surrnder their gold.

The  greater effect was that if you money/savings were in a bank previously, every dollar became worth 1/35 ounces as opposed to 1/20.67 ounces, so effectively it was a 40% devaluation of the dollar.

Chards

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57 minutes ago, Liam84 said:

It will probably come in the "More later...", But was the British legislation as described or was that misinterpreted/not as stringent in reality? I know it's not the exact same thing but when they 'compensated' owners for their firearms in the UK it was common for owners to get shafted. Not only did they lose their hobby they often got a lot less £'s than the guns were actually worth. If they 'banned' gold what's stopping them doing the same thing?

Not getting found out is all well and good, but if you wanted to sell anything you'd be trading in illegal goods...

I'm just spit balling, not getting hot under the collar or anything 😁

I found this old page, which needed a quick edit to ensure it loaded properly:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=bulliondealers.html

... and am about to look for another longer page on TaxFreeGold somewhere.

Google search has demoted most of our old sites/pages, because they are not mobile friendly, and a few other reasons.

 

 

Chards

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The way I read that was it only really stopped people from buying more gold without a license, there wasn't a movement to seek out existing holdings and confiscate them? Difficult to trace and find privately bought metal back then I suppose; no electronic record of your purchases and no all on demand online banking services. These days if your records could legally be accessed you'd be nailed, they could trace every purchase. That and the effective ban on larger cash transactions without ID (therefore creating a record of sale) have put the kibosh on anonymous purchasing; of gold or anything else in the normal legal marketplace. Not long until chips in the arm and government credits replacing everything...🙃 

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17 minutes ago, Liam84 said:

The way I read that was it only really stopped people from buying more gold without a license, there wasn't a movement to seek out existing holdings and confiscate them? Difficult to trace and find privately bought metal back then I suppose; no electronic record of your purchases and no all on demand online banking services. These days if your records could legally be accessed you'd be nailed, they could trace every purchase. That and the effective ban on larger cash transactions without ID (therefore creating a record of sale) have put the kibosh on anonymous purchasing; of gold or anything else in the normal legal marketplace. Not long until chips in the arm and government credits replacing everything...🙃 

In Germany now, you can no longer make purchases of €2000+ in cash, I believe. At the 2020 World Money Fair, where we had a stand, this affected us.

Could be coming here soon!

Oh, and in France, it is illegal to send money, coins, valuables, etc, by post.

Chards

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2 hours ago, Liam84 said:

It will probably come in the "More later...", But was the British legislation as described or was that misinterpreted/not as stringent in reality? I know it's not the exact same thing but when they 'compensated' owners for their firearms in the UK it was common for owners to get shafted. Not only did they lose their hobby they often got a lot less £'s than the guns were actually worth. If they 'banned' gold what's stopping them doing the same thing?

Not getting found out is all well and good, but if you wanted to sell anything you'd be trading in illegal goods...

I'm just spit balling, not getting hot under the collar or anything 😁

Ah, the old page I was looking for got ported over to our new site:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/uk-gold-bullion-market-since-1964/254
Although I think a few edits got added.

Chards

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One thing that makes me wonder, if holders of precious metals were invited, in the best interests of the country you understand😗, to surrender thier gold holdings what the rate of ‘compensation’ would be. 

With Britannias being classed as legal tender, would anyone be satisfied with £100 for a one ounce gold Britannia and £1 for a Sovereign being thier face values? I know it would depend upon the government of the day and the above scenario is more likely with a Corbyn type administration, but it does make you think.

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1 hour ago, Stuntman said:

If citizens were forced to surrender their gold, I'd be selling it to a bullion dealer as scrap for as close to spot as I could get, rather than sell to the Government.

That is always assuming that the government of the day has not invoked the emergency powers act and forbade sales to anyone other than HMG appointed agents. Personally I would bury my stack deeply and wait for the winds of change.

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Gradual change definitely works, as a group/society we all seem too sendentary and meek when it comes to liberties being removed. Lots of us probably realise something should be done, but it's a dangerous leap to actually act.

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1 hour ago, Stuntman said:

If citizens were forced to surrender their gold, I'd be selling it to a bullion dealer as scrap for as close to spot as I could get, rather than sell to the Government.

Good luck to the government trying to get my PM. Not a chance!

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6 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

You'll make them walk the plank!

Haha, my PM is held in a very secure location away from my home. The government have zero chance of finding it or making me tell them where it is. I also agree with the Americans that a man has a right to defend his home.

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14 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Oh, and in France, it is illegal to send money, coins, valuables, etc, by post.

@LawrenceChard, you’ve raised an issue which still completely puzzles me and which I’ve never received any clarification about. The Monnaie de Paris (Paris Mint) sent me a silver proof coin by post. The Royal Mint Bullion regularly sends me their bullion by DHL despite precious metals being on that courier’s list of prohibited items. I don't know if it’s the case that the authorities can’t be bothered to enforce every law like, for example, with littering and begging in the streets.

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2 hours ago, Serendipity said:

@LawrenceChard, you’ve raised an issue which still completely puzzles me and which I’ve never received any clarification about. The Monnaie de Paris (Paris Mint) sent me a silver proof coin by post. The Royal Mint Bullion regularly sends me their bullion by DHL despite precious metals being on that courier’s list of prohibited items. I don't know if it’s the case that the authorities can’t be bothered to enforce every law like, for example, with littering and begging in the streets.

There's one rule for you, and one rule for everybody else!

It would be interesting if you asked the Monnaie de Paris how they manage to get around the law, My guess is that they call it a numismatic specimen (spécimen numismatique), which is a bit of a cheat. Alternatively, because it is owned by the French government, it may be above the law, or at least be able to get special privileges.

Most parcel and delivery companies also have rules about money, precious metals, valuables, etc. This may be to limit their liability if the stuff gets lost or stolen en route (a get-out clause), but it may also be to safeguard their staff, who might otherwise be targeted by criminals if they were known or believed to by carrying highly liquid and easily disposable items.

If a big enough customer comes along with a potentially big contract, most of these companies will relax their rules (see my first sentence), which is understandable, but ethically questionable, not treating all their customers equally.

In our experience, Royal Mail's special delivery (previously "registered") is still one of the best, although not perfect. The maximum insured value is £2500 (previously £1500) which used to be sufficient for many bullion deliveries, but now fails to cover 2 x 1 ounce gold coins.

Probably the worst is Fedex, for lots of reasons, and more excuses than most people could invent.

The Royal Mint is clearly a big customer, so it is no surprise that DHL are happy to bend their own rules.

Of course, you could try asking DHL, but will probably not get an answer, or you could ask the Royal Mint, and who knows what answer you would get.

Chards

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18 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

or you could ask the Royal Mint, and who knows what answer you would get.

Probably along the lines of (but not in so many words) - "NOWT to do with you!" 🤣

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33 minutes ago, 5huggy said:

Probably along the lines of (but not in so many words) - "NOWT to do with you!" 🤣

Yes, if you ask about mintage figures, but I suspect that not all their customer service team would know the correct answer. I would hesitate to suggest they might just make something up!

Chards

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19 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

In Germany now, you can no longer make purchases of €2000+ in cash, I believe. At the 2020 World Money Fair, where we had a stand, this affected us.

Could be coming here soon!

Oh, and in France, it is illegal to send money, coins, valuables, etc, by post.

You can still buy larger amounts in cash, there is no limit on it BUT you need an ID and God knows what other paper work, if you buy over 2.000 Euros, in cash. Till the end of last year this limit was 10.000. Till about 2 years ago it was 15.000.

If you buy via bank transfer in Germany you don't need an ID over 2.000 as there money would be within the "clean money circulation" already. Well, it doesn't really make a big difference, does it.

The governments know hyperinflation is coming and they don't want people to be able to protect themselves but rather have us dependent on them. Of cource the offical reason is to prevent money laundering but that's BS. I would need to search for it now, but there is a study out there showing money laundering is hardly done with gold at all, it's miniscule percentages, much, much more is done via - bank transfers

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