Silver price about to plummet

[sixgun]

5 hours ago, HawkHybrid said:

the purpose of paper contracts is to help with price discovery. it was never intended to deliver physical metal.

the fact is that those who want physical metal are free to buy physical metal, all half a billion toz per year extra if they really want it.

(silver is great, everyone says it's 'worth' so much more yet no one is willing to pay for it.)

those who want papers contracts choose accordingly.

fti silver being abundant in 1980 and 2011 did not stop it's prices going through the roof.

people need to decide if:

1. the facts are misleading them, or

2. those with a vested interest in selling them more physical silver are intentionally misleading them.

HH

i have gone over this before - the Comex market for these metals was set up to channel what would have been potential US citizen demand for real physical into paper. The same goes for the ETF's like GLD and SLV.

This has been exposed https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1974LONDON16154_b.html

The USD came off the gold standard - Americans could own gold (previously this had been made illegal - not that the market is manipulated) - the gold price was rising - further demand expected - the US Treasury sell gold to 'stabilise' the market (aka suppress price) - 

Quote

....THEY ANTICIPATE MAJOR IMPACT OF U.S. OWNERSHIP WILL BE THE FORMATION OF A SIZABLE GOLD FUTURES MARKET, BUT RATHER SMALL DEMAND FOR PHYSICAL HOLDING OF GOLD, OTHER THAN COINS, AFTER A BRIEF INITIAL SURGE FOLLOWING DEREGULATION.

The London Gold Pool where central bank physical was sold to keep price down failed so another cunning scheme was needed.
A sizable gold futures market!  - what a spiffing idea - it was envisaged that there would then only be small demand for physical holdings of gold....

Hmmm it was setup to channel demand away from holding physical gold. It is NOT about price discovery - real price discovery happens in the trades outside these phony markets - real price discovery happens on the Shanghai Gold Exchange where you need the currency and you need the gold to do a deal. If you are hedging a physical position fine - if you are dropping $billions on the market in a few minutes this is not price discovery, this is blatant price manipulation.

[Platinum]

16 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

those who trade in these contracts will know how the operate. either that or will learn very fast. that single idiot who stupidly failed to read the very contract that they were signing is not representative of the people buying many of these contracts. (you only need to read the bit)

Reading and Understanding a contract are two completely different things.

People sign contracts without reading them almost every week, be it visiting a new website or buying a product - the contracts are simply too long.

Now IF people read the contract they still need to understand it - And the vast majority do not. If they did, then for example no one would have a bank account.

Because they would understand it for what it really is: Any amount of EBC on the account is a loan to the bank (which can be added is not voluntary due to the need for a bank account to recieve your paycheck (at least in Sweden)) which the bank can do whatever they want with. You got no insurance from the bank, you are the last in line to be repaid in a collapse and you are subject to a bail in with all your EBC taken whilst the bank can still hold you on the rope to pay the loans for eg your home that you took from them.

Tell me, what blibbering idiot would sign a contract like this? 

Oh, just about everyone in the modern world...

 

[HelpingHands]

US just announced rate cut.

[sixgun]

Silver plummeting - oh wait a minute Mr Wong gets it Wrong again. 

[HawkHybrid]

Just now, sixgun said:

i have gone over this before - the Comex market for these metals was set up to channel what would have been potential US citizen demand for real physical into paper. The same goes for the ETF's like GLD and SLV.

 

those who buy paper contracts with sufficient

sums read what they are signing. those who

want physical will buy physical.

 

how many paper contracts have members who

want physical been duped into buying?

how about people that you know. apart from

that single idiot that was incapable of reading

the contract.

 

paper contracts don't stop people buying physical

metal with the funds from the paper contract.

the truth is, people who buy paper do not want

physical.(the simplest answer is usually the

closest to the truth)

 

HH

[sixgun]

@HawkHybrid - i didn't mention people not reading contracts - you are replying to the wrong member. 
i don't know why i write replies to you nor you to me. We have such different views - you don't accept that the paper markets were primarily created to control prices. They may and are used for speculation, hedging, forward selling, convenience etc etc - but they were created in their present form so prices can be controlled up and down as the need requires. Gold and his sister silver are real money and the anti-matter to fiat counterfeit money. So usually the manipulation of their prices is down.

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, HawkHybrid said:

price discovery is when those who want physical negotiate

with those who supply physical until both parties can agree

on a price. those who are only interested in paper contracts

can do so. you need to remember there is a paper contracts

buyer for every paper contracts seller. and no, the paper

contracts buyer doe not actually want physical ie taking

away from the physical market, (as often suggested by

silver pumpers).

the first part is correct. but by your own admission the paper market is separate from the physical yet you maintain the paper is simply there to discover physical price.

yes there is a seller for every buyer, but the people who issue paper ie sell can do so without any constraint on whether thay have any physical to cover their contracts, therefore they can issue "sell" as much as they want to keep the price depressed.

I don't believe there are any physical covered paper contracts, or any that claim to be can resort to cash settlement if they choose. whether any paper buyers truly believe they can take possession is irrelevant as the T&C will say otherwise. So yes you are correct, the vast majority of paper buyers do not want delivery.

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, HawkHybrid said:

it's not a leveraged ratio

 ok the leverage we are referring to isn't strictly so, it's a way of describing the ratio of fantasy paper contracts against the amount of real physical metal it's supposed to be based upon.

[HawkHybrid]

8 minutes ago, sixgun said:

@HawkHybrid - i didn't mention people not reading contracts - you are replying to the wrong member. 
i don't know why i write replies to you nor you to me. We have such different views - you don't accept that the paper markets were primarily created to control prices. They may and are used for speculation, hedging, forward selling, convenience etc etc - but they were created in their present form so prices can be controlled up and down as the need requires. Gold and his sister silver are real money and the anti-matter to fiat counterfeit money. So usually the manipulation of their prices is down.

 

how does this explain why there are paper markets

for coffee, oil etc. or can we just cherry pick the ones

that support our arguments and discard the rest?

 

HH

[sovereignsteve]

2 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

how does this explain why there are paper markets

for coffee, oil etc. or can we just cherry pick the ones

that support our arguments and discard the rest?

 

HH

paper futures were originally fashioned to enable producers to lock in prices for future crops to stabilise their operation. Also to hedge against potential adverse effects.

then there came speculation etc

the paper markets for coffee and oil will be used for all those reasons and i'm sure occasionally for price manipulation. It's probably just not as obvious as gold and silver as it won't be the banks/governments behind it. Well maybe in the case of oil.

[sixgun]

9 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

how does this explain why there are paper markets for coffee, oil etc. or can we just cherry pick the ones that support our arguments and discard the rest?

HH

Futures markets were created for the likes of farmers to forward sell their crop and flour mills to forward buy their grain etc - i have said this many times before.
So that explains the presence of say the coffee futures market - this doesn't stop speculation and this doesn't stop manipulation happening - indeed there is more than a suspicion this is present.

We are a precious metal forum - our main interest is gold and silver. 
i posted the Wikileaks link where a 'sizable futures market' is mentioned - to reduce physical demand for gold following the USD coming off the gold standard and US citizens being able to own gold. The usual suspects did not want Americans to go running for physical. The gold and silver ETF SLV and GLD have the same function. This is market manipulation and the Comex precious metal market being set up to do just that. That it is used in other ways isn't relevant - it was born with the intention of manipulation.

[HawkHybrid]

23 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Futures markets were created for the likes of farmers to forward sell their crop and flour mills to forward buy their grain etc

 

42 minutes ago, sixgun said:

you don't accept that the paper markets were primarily created to control prices.

 

the futures market is a paper market. contracts are

bought and sold on production that doesn't exist

yet.

 

is it too far fetched to suggest that the silver/gold

futures market was created to that miners could

sell metal that wasn't mined yet?

 

HH

[sixgun]

5 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

it too far fetched to suggest that the silver/gold futures market was created to that miners could sell metal that wasn't mined yet?

HH

BUT HH - the evidence was leaked - the gold futures market was created to keep Americans away from physical - to control the price - read the leaked document in the Wikileaks link i posted.
No need for conjecture.

[HawkHybrid]

Quote

SINCE THERE IS MOUNTING EVIDENCE THAT MUCH OF THE RECENT INCREASE IN THE PRICE OF TRADED GOLD HAS RESULTED FROM ANTICIPATION OF A LARGE AMERICAN DEMAND FOLLOWING THE DEREGULATION DATE, EVEN THOUGH THE DEALERS THEMSELVES EXPECT THE PHYSICAL DEMAND TO BE RATHER SHORT- LIVED.

Quote

5. AS TO FUTURE DEMAND BY U.S. CITIZENS FOR GOLD, MOST DEALERS DID NOT FORESEE DEMAND FOR PHYSICAL HOLDING AS SIGNIFICANT, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF AN INITIAL SURGE DURING THE FIRST 2 TO 3 MONTHS OF THE YEAR FOLLOWING DEREGULATION THEY DID NOT FEEL THAT U.S. CITIZENS, ON THE WHOLE, WERE PSYCHOLOGICALLY PREPARED TO SWITCH FROM SMALL SCALE GOLD COIN PURCHASES TO LARGE SCALE, LONG-TERM BULLION HOARDING. SEVERAL EXPRESSED THE VIEW THAT THE DEMAND FOR COINS (AFTER THE INITIAL SURGE) WOULD MOST LIKELY BE SUCH THAT IT COULD BE MET FROM WITHIN SHOULD THE U.S. DECIDE TO MINT GOLD COINS FOR SUCH PURPOSES. SPIERS

 

was the futures market created to make more

stable a temporary blip in the markets? which

was expected to return to a normal lower level

of demand?

was the ratio of paper to physical big in order

to handle the big spike in speculation but then

a natural drop off in physical demand?

it was designed to have a big physical market

because no one was expecting a big physical

market to materialise?

 

it wasn't to keep americans away from physical.

americans wasn't expected to be interested in

hoarding physical after the initial frenzy?

 

HH

[Michal]

5 hours ago, Platinum said:

Reading and Understanding a contract are two completely different things.

People sign contracts without reading them almost every week, be it visiting a new website or buying a product - the contracts are simply too long.

Now IF people read the contract they still need to understand it - And the vast majority do not. If they did, then for example no one would have a bank account.

Because they would understand it for what it really is: Any amount of EBC on the account is a loan to the bank (which can be added is not voluntary due to the need for a bank account to recieve your paycheck (at least in Sweden)) which the bank can do whatever they want with. You got no insurance from the bank, you are the last in line to be repaid in a collapse and you are subject to a bail in with all your EBC taken whilst the bank can still hold you on the rope to pay the loans for eg your home that you took from them.

Tell me, what blibbering idiot would sign a contract like this? 

Oh, just about everyone in the modern world...

 

In UK is the same, and you can't get your wage other way than in to bank account. We are slaves but most of people have no idea about it. Some time a go TSB had massive system issues people couldn't pay for goods, withdraw cash and so on. I personally had balance showing - 4000 pounds on my current account ( never had even a pound in debt or any overdraft), but worst part was i had no proof to support claim that it is not my debt, that is system in which we are living one glitch and your steady life is gone. They sort it out but it waked me out and i do not hold money in the bank any more, neither in cash.   illusion of wealth is just an illusion as paper silver is just paper.

[Martlet]

4 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

paper futures were originally fashioned to enable producers to lock in prices for future crops to stabilise their operation. Also to hedge against potential adverse effects.

then there came speculation etc

the paper markets for coffee and oil will be used for all those reasons and i'm sure occasionally for price manipulation. It's probably just not as obvious as gold and silver as it won't be the banks/governments behind it. Well maybe in the case of oil.

So there is speculation on the forward value of the commodities, and short term manipulation. Futures are still tied (if not directly) to value of the underlying commodity.  If there were genuine failure to deliver for those expecting physical, buyers (or sellers) would soon enough leave the paper market and a substantial divergence would emerge in the physical market. Wouldn't last long as arbitrage will make the contracts return to the market value.  

[Oldun]

Can anyone say Palladium. There is an example where the whole thing broke down and backwardation happened recently. Business needed the physical right now and rates went ballistic as there simply wasn’t enough delivery product.....which left many chasing a little.

[JonCL]

8 hours ago, Platinum said:

Reading and Understanding a contract are two completely different things.

People sign contracts without reading them almost every week, be it visiting a new website or buying a product - the contracts are simply too long.

Now IF people read the contract they still need to understand it - And the vast majority do not. If they did, then for example no one would have a bank account.

Because they would understand it for what it really is: Any amount of EBC on the account is a loan to the bank (which can be added is not voluntary due to the need for a bank account to recieve your paycheck (at least in Sweden)) which the bank can do whatever they want with. You got no insurance from the bank, you are the last in line to be repaid in a collapse and you are subject to a bail in with all your EBC taken whilst the bank can still hold you on the rope to pay the loans for eg your home that you took from them.

Tell me, what blibbering idiot would sign a contract like this? 

Oh, just about everyone in the modern world...

 

It’s easy to have a somewhat jaundiced view of bankers but we take out what you see as a Faustian pact with them for our own convenience: they provide a service, we pay for it.  

Presumably you don’t have a bank account?

[Michal]

2 hours ago, JonCL said:

It’s easy to have a somewhat jaundiced view of bankers but we take out what you see as a Faustian pact with them for our own convenience: they provide a service, we pay for it.  

Presumably you don’t have a bank account?

Ahh you see in UK you cant have a normal job without bank account except few self employed jobs. Your wage have to go on bank account, no choice. 

[Platinum]

7 hours ago, JonCL said:

It’s easy to have a somewhat jaundiced view of bankers but we take out what you see as a Faustian pact with them for our own convenience: they provide a service, we pay for it.  

Presumably you don’t have a bank account?

What I wrote was meant as proof that people either do not read or understand the full essence of a contract. Which is very difficult to do without a lawyer.

Jaundiced view of the bankers? Try spiteful instead. For it is not a Faustian pact, it is a forced pact.

Faust signed his agreement freely and willingly, yet that is not the case today. In a society with no physical cash or very minimum amounts that can’t really be spent or acquired, one is forced to have a bank account just to live. So it is rather a forced pact of slavery since all the EBCs on the account is loaned to the bank with no safety and no obligation to hand it over unless they will agree to do so.

Pure spite is my view of that.

[JonCL]

6 hours ago, Michal said:

Ahh you see in UK you cant have a normal job without bank account except few self employed jobs. Your wage have to go on bank account, no choice. 

 

1 hour ago, Platinum said:

What I wrote was meant as proof that people either do not read or understand the full essence of a contract. Which is very difficult to do without a lawyer.

Jaundiced view of the bankers? Try spiteful instead. For it is not a Faustian pact, it is a forced pact.

Faust signed his agreement freely and willingly, yet that is not the case today. In a society with no physical cash or very minimum amounts that can’t really be spent or acquired, one is forced to have a bank account just to live. So it is rather a forced pact of slavery since all the EBCs on the account is loaned to the bank with no safety and no obligation to hand it over unless they will agree to do so.

Pure spite is my view of that.

Have you looked at switching to a credit union or at least an online bank? If my antipathy towards high street banks was such, I’d be wanting to remove myself from their clutches.

[Platinum]

It is a good suggestion in theory but not in practise. All banks are required to follow certain regulations from Governments and the EU (even more so in a crisis, although no one fully knows the extent of the rules in such a scenario), so no matter where one goes there are still risks and problems. Thanks for the suggestion though matey!

[Wonger]

Looks like the commercials will have covered by around $11 for this particular leg down! 😉

[STONE]

Ok, its been over a year since your predictions. The only reason silver is going lower is because the stock market is dragging it down through sell offs to cover margin calls. Even a broken watch is right twice a day...Sorry Wonger the time limit on future predictions around here is 90 days max and your long over due...

[Wonger]

10 hours ago, STONE said:

Ok, its been over a year since your predictions. The only reason silver is going lower is because the stock market is dragging it down through sell offs to cover margin calls. Even a broken watch is right twice a day...Sorry Wonger the time limit on future predictions around here is 90 days max and your long over due...

Stone of course its nothing to do with the commercial banks holding record breaking short futures contracts is it? Ok lets run with the media explanation then that Silver is falling due to stocks falling, where do you think Silver will be when the Dow has fallen 90% to $3000? 🤣