1869 Shield Die 34 - "Yellow Gold"

[TheGoldSovereign]

I had erroneously recorded this die number twice in my database, I had a separate entry for it as a variety that has been discovered before and thought I didn't have any.

On second look I noticed that in fact I had 5!

I had another look at them this morning and note that one is very very copper coloured. It is suspected that there was a few experimental strikes with different alloys, with the "yellow gold" suspected to be with silver instead of copper.

Is it possible they also tried something else, or would the silver content potentially tone like this? I really tried to capture the difference in photos but in hand it's ridiculously different.

 

[Britannia47]

Hi,

I've looked at 2 of my 1869 London Mint Sovereigns and they are appear to be of regular 'yellow gold' appearance. I have never seen that sort of red toning on a shield-back before. In my opinion it seems to be a one off and is possibly the toning of the silver not the copper. Who knows what history has dealt that coin over the past 150 years. About that time they were trying out different alloys, as you said, either 8.3% silver or 8.3% copper, or more generally a balance of the two metals but only using a very small amount of silver. Later in Victoria's reign and onwards it was mostly all copper, as it is today. I recently had my 'Australia' 2005 proof sovereign tested, and it came back with 8.3% silver, as were the 2 original years of 1855 & 1856. 'Yellow Gold' to me is more attractive than the R.Ms offerings. Anyway, an interesting subject.....

Cheers.

[sovereignsteve]

If you're going to do this properly, you really need to invest in a XRF analyser 😉

[Zhorro]

On 22/02/2019 at 08:27, sg86 said:

I had erroneously recorded this die number twice in my database, I had a separate entry for it as a variety that has been discovered before and thought I didn't have any.

On second look I noticed that in fact I had 5!

I had another look at them this morning and note that one is very very copper coloured. It is suspected that there was a few experimental strikes with different alloys, with the "yellow gold" suspected to be with silver instead of copper.

Is it possible they also tried something else, or would the silver content potentially tone like this? I really tried to capture the difference in photos but in hand it's ridiculously different.

Are you sure all the five examples are Die No.34 and none are Die No.54 (which is also listed in Marsh)?  In my limited experience it is often difficult to differentiate between a "3" and a "5" on these Die numbers.

Marsh rates the 1869 Die No.34 "yellow gold" as an "R3" so it should be "extremely rare".

[Zhorro]

I have been on the lookout for an 1869 Die No.34 for a while because of its "yellow gold" designation.  I now think I have found one.  The pictures here show this 1869 sovereign compared to an 1871 one (the nearest I had in date) and the 1869 one does look to be a different colour to the 1871 one (the 1869 sovereign does look to be yellow).  I have then shown the reverse of the 1869 sovereign, but the Die number is not easy to see.  So, I then used a magnifying glass and I am 99% convinced it is "34" as opposed to "54".

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, Zhorro said:

So, I then used a magnifying glass and I am 99% convinced it is "34" as opposed to "54"

defo looks like 34 from here

[Murph]

Yes, it does but it's very hard to see the top of the number from the picture.

I'd have thought a man of your means would have the very best optical devices sg86 or have you spent all your money on those innumerable sovereigns.

The colour doesn't show up that well from the picture either.  It's hard to tell if it's just toning or it really is yellow.  It certainly looks like it might well be.

 

Oh to have so many you just happen across 5 you didn't realise you had.  Next you'll be telling us you found some down the back of the sofa.

[skiadman]

Hi,

Do all 1869 sovereigns with Die 34 belong to the "Yellow Gold" variety ?

[dicker]

 

1 hour ago, skiadman said:

Hi,

Do all 1869 sovereigns with Die 34 belong to the "Yellow Gold" variety ?

I don’t think so....I have one in the vault so don’t have it in front of me, but I have not recorded it as a colour variant to other years.  I record what I have pretty carefully and am pretty confident that it does not look like this one

Best

Dicker

[Britannia47]

Didn't expect this thread to reappear after 17 months!  I agree with Dicker - there is no evidence that a London mint mark determines the colour variant. There is no agreed reason why some sovereigns are different in colour over time than others. There could be impurities in the alloy either silver or copper. Certainly early Australian sovereigns had silver in the mix, because it could not be separated from the gold until the chlorine gas process had been discovered. This was about 1870. London mint tended to use all copper I believe. Regardless of the alloy used have you noticed that all sovereigns look 'golden' over time - Queen Vic, all the way to the Gillick QEII s? so I wonder if this is a natural degradation of the copper alloy. Perhaps the Royal Mints' red gold sovereigns will also soften overtime and the gold will come back! Yippee!  Here are my 2 1869 Sovs ( Mint marks 15 & 19 ) looking as yellow as, well.... 'Gold!'

[dicker]

Or of course it could be the storage conditions affecting the non gold content of the Sovereign.  This has always been my favoured theory around colour variation.

Best 

Dicker
 

 

[Britannia47]

8 minutes ago, dicker said:

Or of course it could be the storage conditions affecting the non gold content of the Sovereign.  This has always been my favoured theory around colour variation.

Best 

Dicker
 

 

Could well be!  Anyone else have theories?  Perhaps Lawrence Chard could help out...

[skiadman]

Well, I am not referring to all 1869 sovereign but only to the ones with Die no 34. This is the only Die number that Marsh identifies as the Yellow Gold variety. So the question remains: Do all 1869 Die 34 gold sovereigns belong to the Yellow gold variety ?

Edited August 8, 2020 by skiadman

[dicker]

Just to be clear (if I was not on the above reply), mine IS a ‘69 Die number 34.  
 

I will go to my vault this coming week but as I said before I am pretty sure there is no unusual colour difference from other Sovs of this period and Mint.  
 

Best

Dicker

[Britannia47]

On 07/08/2020 at 11:08, skiadman said:

Hi,

Do all 1869 sovereigns with Die 34 belong to the "Yellow Gold" variety ?

Apologies for missing the point of your question. You are right, it is shown in the latest 'Marsh' revised by Steve Hill as 53A 'Die number 34 struck from "yellow gold" with a rating of R3. My earlier Marsh books only shows one variety as C. I am not sure what that means in terms of the exact alloy used. I suggest you email Steve Hill at Sovereign rarities and ask for clarification. He has been helpful to me in the past. Perhaps the percentage of silver was increased in the alloy to make it appear more yellow - who knows? but just for one die number? I'm baffled.

[TheGoldSovereign]

On 08/08/2020 at 17:11, Britannia47 said:

Apologies for missing the point of your question. You are right, it is shown in the latest 'Marsh' revised by Steve Hill as 53A 'Die number 34 struck from "yellow gold" with a rating of R3. My earlier Marsh books only shows one variety as C. I am not sure what that means in terms of the exact alloy used. I suggest you email Steve Hill at Sovereign rarities and ask for clarification. He has been helpful to me in the past. Perhaps the percentage of silver was increased in the alloy to make it appear more yellow - who knows? but just for one die number? I'm baffled.

Yes you are correct that it is assumed the gold used would have been alloyed with silver, it is common in the 1Sov AUS series.

I have 7 of this die number for 1869 so will do some further research at some point , some metallurgical analysis with SEN would be preferable

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 07/08/2020 at 15:32, Britannia47 said:

Didn't expect this thread to reappear after 17 months!  I agree with Dicker - there is no evidence that a London mint mark determines the colour variant. There is no agreed reason why some sovereigns are different in colour over time than others. There could be impurities in the alloy either silver or copper. Certainly early Australian sovereigns had silver in the mix, because it could not be separated from the gold until the chlorine gas process had been discovered. This was about 1870. London mint tended to use all copper I believe. Regardless of the alloy used have you noticed that all sovereigns look 'golden' over time - Queen Vic, all the way to the Gillick QEII s? so I wonder if this is a natural degradation of the copper alloy. Perhaps the Royal Mints' red gold sovereigns will also soften overtime and the gold will come back! Yippee!  Here are my 2 1869 Sovs ( Mint marks 15 & 19 ) looking as yellow as, well.... 'Gold!'

 

It certainly is very difficult to find any sovereigns with a London mintmark, mainly because the Royal Mint (London) never used a mintmark. 🙂

"London mint tended to use all copper I believe." - No. Hundreds of Niton tests we have done show typically about 3ppt of silver in most pre-QEII sovereigns. Previously I did notice the RM publish some misinformed garbage about sovereigns and/or other British gold coins traditionally being struck using red gold. They were / are wrong, as they often are.

Sure, some very early, circa 1817, contain more silver, as do some of the Australian mint sovereigns. We published this blog article in 2018: https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/analysis-of-alloy-content-of-gold-sovereigns/180
We are overdue to update it, and add many more sample years.

Differential toning on older coins is likely to be related to how and where they have been stored, possibly atmospheric pollutants, possibly humid conditions. Some yellow sovereigns may have been gilded, reddish ones may have been in acid or other chemical.

The best non-destructive way to tell is to use XRF.

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by LawrenceChard