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20 Franc Coins Of The LMU


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4 minutes ago, augur said:

coin photography pushes the limits of technology as the dynamic range (dark to bright) usually maxes out the capabilities of the sensor, especially proof coins (hence the matte proofs in the past).

in order to compensate for the shadow when photographing without a semitransparent mirror (to avoid the reflection/shadow of the lens/camera) you can play with the exposure to make use of the dynamic range the sensor has captured (the display can show even less than the sensor captures).

to adequately capture a coin you would have to photograph through a semitransparent mirror and create a HDR (high dynamic range) picture to capture the brightest reflection to the darkest shadow but this requires an extensive setup and extensive post processing. I haven't yet risen to this challenge, so this is my shortcut 😊

 

Phone of evil – the one with the bite on the forbidden fruit.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth with that excellent summary of coin photography!!!

I like forbidden fruit....don’t go there....enjoy your day.

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31 minutes ago, Kookaburracollector said:

@augur and @StevenDS You have both posted some really high quality photographs...without polluting the thread too much, could you explain how you achieve such good pics..

I can't help you. I kept the pictures from the guy that sold me mine, because they are better quality then I could make myself.

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1 hour ago, augur said:

Macro Lens for phone of evil and some post processing (crop, exposure and shadows up, contrast and highlights down)

in this case fish eye lens as the macro lens wouldn't fit larger than half sovereign or 1/10 gold

Always an open mind on this thread, and willing to learn...so I took out a 20 Franc Angel and experimented with @augurvision..(copyright pending)

I think the value of my small collection just went up a notch..

Before...

1361DB95-86C0-4B9B-A874-3028053CDD11.thumb.jpeg.f431ce84d4022572aa1ca8f0b4d5757b.jpeg

Agreed ..pretty rubbish.

Then two attempts using augurvision techniques..

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Alternative ...all down to preference.

FB45AE8D-BDD5-4A5C-B24F-38C7D171E2E0.thumb.png.ca614f468e48eeeba21254cef0fdf017.png

And that’s in 30 minutes..

Ciao.

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I will do a gold run this weekend with a little extra cash for my birthday. In truest adventurous fashion I will not check what may be available beforehand at my target location. I have a shortlist including tubes of silver bullion coins, but there is a pawnshop nearby that may yield LMU coins. I would be aiming for a french rooster and/or a french angel.


I went there for Vrenelis and 20 Goldmark last time and was offered some Napoleons, let's see if they are having the good stuff this time...


If I go nuts, I will take a 5 Goldmark, but that is for another topic...

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Work calls on vacation days, a beginning cold, taking a wrong train, train delays in both directions, a credit card threatening not to work - many could be the tales to tell of today's journey, but that is not for here and not for now...


I am living in the middle of the northern part of Germany in general and in the middle of nowhere specifically. The town I'm living in has a couple of supermarkets, but nothing that would yield more than Euro currency coins when looking for anything connected to our hobby. To get my fix, I either have to buy online, which I do not like, or leave to go on journeys to places where I can buy anonymously and then vanish. To the west the Ruhrgebiet beckons, an urban sprawl that can be circled by train easily and houses a multitude of pawn shops, jewelers, coin and bullion dealers. To the east lies my home city where I go regularly, even though my fiancee is living in a distant land at the moment. Here I can visit a branch office of one of the major precious metal dealers. Even farther to the east lies a town that houses a brick and mortar presence of a large online dealer as well as of one of the best pawn shop chains around.

Going 'home' for my birthday made the decision easy, and I made a shopping list that included a tube of silver Britannia coins (I blame you, my british friends). As the large precious metal dealer does charge full VAT on EU silver bullion coins, and the online dealer does not, a plan was made to go to the town farther east and look for some LMU trade coins while I was there as well. I also wanted to get a first hand impression of Umicore silver bars, which are not available in my home city, as the large precious metal dealer only sells his own bars. The voyage would include arriving at the town of destination then go to the place that has a convenient triangle of an ATM of my bank (an online bank whose ATMs are few), the online dealer's branch office and the pawn shop within walking distance. Plan b in the case of not finding anything that interests me, would be to spend money at the precious metal dealer's branch office upon returning home.

Destiny struck in a variety of ways and I found myself back at the central railway station of my home city, with a huge headache, much too late into the day, and no trains leaving to where I wanted to go. This was when I decided to stuff it and just see if there was something nice to be had at my plan b. After raiding a nearby ATM I arrived. We are looking at the impersonal branch office of Degussa (I may elaborate later) from the other side of the street, and at the polished rooms on the inside:

1538561578_Degussaoutside.thumb.jpg.f350a1cf28e8d9d525d5057d4d45b1a6.jpg

562853127_Degussainside.thumb.jpg.2864a56894e691a5c708da7fa3867f76.jpg

The weak hope of Degussa finally having managed to reimport Britannias from outside the EU, thus being able to use a loophole and only needing to charge the lower VAT of 7% failed, so I asked to see their LMU 20 francs. I was presented a mid size compartment box to discuss about and to choose from. Initially I asked for the french Rooster (Marianne here) or the Angel and would have settled for these two, or any of these and an older swiss Helvetia (I have a lot of newer Vrenelis already). Seeing that Belgium and Italy would be available however and a certain lack of cheap Britannias made me reconsider my silver spendings and I switched to the idea of getting one of each of the first LMU countries, France, Belgium, Italy and Switzerland. I was a bit unprepared, so no idea if I made the right choices. I realized I will have to read a lot more about these coins. I took the only french Rooster, and the only swiss Helvetia, one of a multitude of belgian Leopolds and settled for an italian Umberto over an Emanuele II.

Here are the obverses:

1678036952_LatinMonetaryUnionobverse.thumb.jpg.2db9caafb9a6cd39fdff9482c4616841.jpg

and the reverses:

551234666_LatinMonetaryUnionreverse.jpg.thumb.JPG.f23ceb65b1d2e0bd27b7ff7953d81495.JPG

French Rooster 1910
Belgian Leopold 1877
Italian Umberto 1882
Swiss Helvetia 1890

The difference in hue is not just in the photo and shows the difference in copper versus silver content for alloying - I hope. These are basically bullion grade coins, I have not calculated the amount paid over spot so far. I just wanted to get the pictures out and will put down further thoughts once my medication kicked in, at some time this weekend...

Edited by KevinFlynn
corrections
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Well I don’t have a lovely story like that however my new pickups made me quite happy especially since I picked them up at spot or below. 

The Napolean from the forum, and the two Swiss from a dealer for a swap with some silver. 

The second Napolean, lira and Rooster I have posted before. 

I know that they aren’t LMU, but I am also starting to collect similar size if not weight/AU content coins from across the world. The Five dollar and Colombian 5 Pesos are the beginning of these. 

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So, what I am thinking after having done the deed...

Looking at the premiums I paid, I realize I entered collector's territory. Not that I mind, but I am still a bullion stacker at heart and you will never find me encapsulating or slabbing a coin. The Rooster I got at bullion premium, the Helvetia was seriously expensive, somwething that does not surprise me, as I already knew from eyeing these as variations on the Vreneli. The Leopold was still in bullion range the Umberto just about entered collector's range.

I bought collector's pieces before, like a 10 Franken Vreneli or a 10 Goldmark, to have variations of coins I'm stacking. I do however keep these to single pieces. Regarding LMU coins, I will not break my rule of not buying gold anonymously. This for me rules out hunting for date runs or specific dates, which I am convinced would only be possible online. I am also much too instant gratification to wait for low prices or low spot, I am buying what I want, and I am buying at regular intervals (cost averaging bullion).

I can see myself completing one of each of the french, belgian, italian variants (the swiss I already have).

From what I know now that would be

France Napoleon III
France Napoleon III laure
France Genie
France Coq - check
Belgium Leopold II (variant)
Belgium Leopold II (variant)
Belgium Albert (variant)
Belgium Albert (variant)
Italy Emanuele II
Italy Umberto I - check
Italy Emanuele III (variant)
Italy Emanuele III (variant)
Italy Emanuele III (variant)
Swiss Helvetia - check
Swiss Vreneli - check

I would need to research if that is possible, as if one of these would have serious collector's value, I would be out as my very special variation of OCD would not make me want to start this if I could not finish it.

If not, I could see myself adding those that I found of reasonable premium to the coins I will stack regularly (Vrenelis and 20 Goldmark may get boring over time). Design wise I guess these could be french Roosters and Angels.

Now on to look for an old fashioned book on Latin Monetary Union (english or german)...

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Lying down with a massive cold, I managed to do a little research

France 20 Francs (Gold)

Napoleon III 1,2% over spot
Napoleon III laure 5,7% over spot
Genie 2,0% over spot
Coq 1,4% over spot

Belgium 20 Francs (Gold)

Leopold II 1,5% over spot
> Albert I 21,5% over spot <

Italy 20 Lira (Gold)

Emanuele II 2,9% over spot
Umberto I 2,8% over spot
Emanuele III --

Switzerland 20 Francs (Gold)

Helvetia 6,4% over spot
Vreneli 2,5% over spot

These are all nicely priced, with the secoind Napoleon III and the Helvetia higher, and the Albert I seeming to be a real collector's piece. Sadly I did not find an Emanuelle III.

Not that I would be able to realize these prices on my voyages, as I do not have the luxury of looking for cheapest price when buying anonymously, but it shows me a tendency.

I am still unsure of what to do. Maybe see if I can optimize my "collection" by trying to synchronize the dates of my coins. I will lay this to rest for a while and take my time researching. There is little in literature, mostly some academic treatises, I could find on the LMU, so I will take to the internet for sources.

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On 02/02/2019 at 09:52, KevinFlynn said:

So, what I am thinking after having done the deed...

Looking at the premiums I paid, I realize I entered collector's territory. Not that I mind, but I am still a bullion stacker at heart and you will never find me encapsulating or slabbing a coin. The Rooster I got at bullion premium, the Helvetia was seriously expensive, somwething that does not surprise me, as I already knew from eyeing these as variations on the Vreneli. The Leopold was still in bullion range the Umberto just about entered collector's range.

I bought collector's pieces before, like a 10 Franken Vreneli or a 10 Goldmark, to have variations of coins I'm stacking. I do however keep these to single pieces. Regarding LMU coins, I will not break my rule of not buying gold anonymously. This for me rules out hunting for date runs or specific dates, which I am convinced would only be possible online. I am also much too instant gratification to wait for low prices or low spot, I am buying what I want, and I am buying at regular intervals (cost averaging bullion).

I can see myself completing one of each of the french, belgian, italian variants (the swiss I already have).

From what I know now that would be

France Napoleon III
France Napoleon III laure
France Genie
France Coq - check
Belgium Leopold II (variant)
Belgium Leopold II (variant)
Belgium Albert (variant)
Belgium Albert (variant)
Italy Emanuele II
Italy Umberto I - check
Italy Emanuele III (variant)
Italy Emanuele III (variant)
Italy Emanuele III (variant)
Swiss Helvetia - check
Swiss Vreneli - check

I would need to research if that is possible, as if one of these would have serious collector's value, I would be out as my very special variation of OCD would not make me want to start this if I could not finish it.

If not, I could see myself adding those that I found of reasonable premium to the coins I will stack regularly (Vrenelis and 20 Goldmark may get boring over time). Design wise I guess these could be french Roosters and Angels.

Now on to look for an old fashioned book on Latin Monetary Union (english or german)...

Yes the Albert coin  Belgium   have a premium  cos they are 250000 minted  125000 belgium  125000 flamish , also the leopold  1865  .You can get for small premium  the Austrian 20 francs  and the  Hungarian one . The Emanuele  III have very high premium at least double the gold value .

The 20 lire from 1859  dawn have a big premium  , the  20 francs  French are easy to collect  from 1848 dawn they command a premium of 30 to 50 euro   but you can collect  them  compared to the Italian ones   which are very expensive  some dates cost over 500 euro

The rest of them have big premiums and is  hard to find one  for a decent  price 

 

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A little addition to the 20 Francs thread:

1855 Sardinia 20 Francs from the Turin mint. Vittorio Emanuele II would later become the first King of Italy. During the Risorgimento he accepted the crown but didn't change his name to Vittorio Emanuele I so that he technically conquered Italy in 1861.

IMG_0163.thumb.JPG.21716d172bfddaf96674b7cfa69be7ff.JPG

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Some eagle eye will already have noticed that this isn't Victor Emanuel II  but Victor Emanuel "H", King of Sardinia • Cyprus and Jerusalem • Duke of Sardinia • Genoa and Montferrat • Prince of Piedmont etc.

IMG_0165.thumb.JPG.33bdfa24b772e5439391d80717caf324.JPG

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1 minute ago, KevinFlynn said:

I have a black stub like that on a 20 Goldmark, soaking did not help... -_-

I'm contemplating a toothpick...

Don’t! that would be too abrasive I think. Maybe a cotton bud to start with! Doesn’t really matter with a bullion coin I guess. A jeweller friend of mine occasionally allows me to use his ultrasonic cleaner, but again, only on bullion grade coins.

 I am am sure augur will have a superb, non invasive method to deal with such issues..

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3 hours ago, KevinFlynn said:

I have a black stub like that on a 20 Goldmark, soaking did not help... -_-

I'm contemplating a toothpick...

I would not use any mechanical means to clean coins, unless it was worthless bullion; but then, why would you even want to clean bullion...

3 hours ago, Kookaburracollector said:

A jeweller friend of mine occasionally allows me to use his ultrasonic cleaner, but again, only on bullion grade coins.

I would even have reservations towards ultrasonic cleaning: the rim is in contact with the basket, even though it's soft plastic, the debris might be abrasive and cause wear points in the contact area.

Actually a basic test of the efficiency of an ultrasonic cleaner is to hang in aluminium foil strips to see how long it takes for them to perforate. 

 

3 hours ago, Kookaburracollector said:

I am am sure augur will have a superb, non invasive method to deal with such issues..

How right you are 😊 I initially thought to leave it alone but now you made me think better. It is a long elaborate process that takes time but is quite satisfying. It is a bit like developing a photograph the old fashioned way. 

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1 hour ago, augur said:

How right you are 😊 I initially thought to leave it alone but now you made me think better. It is a long elaborate process that takes time but is quite satisfying. It is a bit like developing a photograph the old fashioned way. 

@augur I am sure the readers of this thread would love to hear about your long satisfying elaborate process for cleaning coins ..do tell! I bet you studied chemistry at school. I did as well, but can only remember how to make beer, which doesn’t help me clean coins.

Should I be adding fixer and HCA (Hypo Cleaning Agent) to my shopping list for tomorrow?? 

 

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1 hour ago, eddi said:

The first one when he made himself King.  Its another German version as well

Didn’t Napoleon take his crown from the pope, and place it on his head himself....I think he did literally make himself king (emperor)

That’s a very nice coin @eddi ..jealousy starting to build here.....

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On 06/02/2019 at 21:18, Kookaburracollector said:

@augur I am sure the readers of this thread would love to hear about your long satisfying elaborate process for cleaning coins ...

Disclaimer: this process has only been used on circulation gold coinage (not proofs or 24ct gold). Results will differ from coin to coin and if in doubt, it is better to leave restoration/conservation to the experts at PCGS/NGC. Any attempts to clean coins are at your own risk.

 

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Key to cleaning is to remove baked-in debris while preserving the patina. If you have a mint state coin you could obviously argue that you want to remove any patina but be advised that this can negatively affect the value of a coin.

Avoid any mechanical cleaning or harsh chemicals. I tend to soak the coin in a mix of oils and alcohols (still working on the recipe) to soften up the debris, occasionally wiping with a soft brush; the brush should be cleaned after each round to avoid debris particles scratching the coin surface (I use disposable micro brushes).

All oils contain acids, that can affect the less precious alloy components (e.g. copper), therefore I rinse off the oil/alcohol mix and repeat over the course of days. While the mix will wash off the metal, it usually remains attached to the debris and keeps softening it further up.

Stubborn stains get a very strong chemical applied that isn't safe to use, so I won't mention but all chemicals used non corrosive.

IMG_0173.thumb.JPG.9d99e1f3328efd8cfcb3b860849a0613.JPGIMG_0169.thumb.JPG.e579a944fa79fec75187a1d42680dad7.JPG

Finally the surfaces need to be completely clean from the oil mixture and "contaminated" again: the oil mix I'm using slowly evaporates while a mild salt/acid touch-up regenerates in a redox reaction the patina. This last stage takes weeks or months, so this here is just a preliminary result.

IMG_0177.thumb.JPG.e9825204dee4a84d114658363f76419d.JPGIMG_0176.thumb.JPG.5bc71a3b6a7773c5239d641d5ba53359.JPG

 

What can can be seen nicely now is that the "H" served as a template for positioning the "II" and that the Roman "I" is not identical with the letter "I"

IMG_0179.thumb.JPG.fb650cdeb09d7057b7385e56aaf90c15.JPG

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