what is a numismatic coin

[craig12]

saw a you tube vid today and the vid maker was saying that they believed that slabbed coins ie pandas, eagles, etc etc were not numismatics, they said that proper numismatic coins were those that were in circulation in years gone by (spendable coins in their day)  I was under the impression that slabbed bullion was numismatic ,  what is a numismatic  coin 

[Danny-boy]

Slabbed bullion is classed as semi-numismatic in my book, as are most of the collectible bullion coins.

Full numismatic, as you say, is old circulated coins.

[HighlandTiger]

Semi-numismatic is a made up word, so that people who collect silver rounds with pretty pictures from Government mints can feel as though they are collecting real coins. ......

 

[Danny-boy]

numismatics [ noo-miz-mat-iks, -mis-, nyoo- ]

noun [(used with a singular verb)]

1. the study or collecting of coins, medals, paper money, etc.

So fundamentally, any coins with a face value count as numismatics if you collect them.

[silversword]

So fundamentally, any coins with a face value count as numismatics if you collect them.

 

This is true, and exactly how I understand it. But for a coin to have numismatic value then it must be sought by other collectors. Clearly then the laws of supply/demand determine just how valuable that coin might be.

[Danny-boy]

This is true, and exactly how I understand it. But for a coin to have numismatic value then it must be sought by other collectors. Clearly then the laws of supply/demand determine just how valuable that coin might be.

But because you can't allocate a "price" at which a coin becomes numismatic, then any coin is numismatic if you deem it as such.

Some will agree that your coin is numismatic, some won't.

[HelpingHands]

There's an 'argent agent' video on you tube in which he has a bit of a rant saying that there is no such thing as 'semi-numis' and that those coins are just 'better-bullion'.

 

So here's my question:  What makes that bullion better bullion?  Is it because it's collectable?  Maybe semi-collectable? (A.K.A semi-numi?)  

[strenue]

Better bullion (imo):

- better looking design, which changes year on year, makes it desirable and collectible.

- limited mintage, which is basic supply and demand economics, i.e. the 2oz mouse very few around, hence crazy premium.

- quality dire casting (no milk spots, tarnish)

- air tight capsuled to keep it in mint condition.

- loose link to spot. price is higher from release, but does move with spot. can break from spot as it gets older in years, i.e. perth mint tiger or ox.

Examples: Perth Mint Lunars, Perth Mint Koalas, Perth Mint Kookaburras, Chinese Pandas.

 

Standard Bullion:

- solid design which is the same each year.

- unlimited mintage

- potentially lower quality dire casting

- no capsule, in a tube generally. coin exposed to the elements.

- very close link to spot, even the older years.  You best value for money if only after silver content.

Examples: American Eagle, Candaian Maple, Perth Mint Crocodile, Austrian Philharmonic.

 

Modern Numismatic:

- great design (or colour, gilded)

- very limited mintage

- very high quality finish, normally polished finish as opposed to matte finish.

- boxed, COA'd and other fancy packaging.

- no link to spot what so ever, high price from release date

[craig12]

so if a numismatic coin was something that circulated around the country , how do they get the grades ms 60 67 etc  because surely if it was a coin that was used the condition would be pretty poor ,  are we meaning a ms coin is a coin that has never been in circulation to the public whatsoever

[strenue]

Yes there are coins planned for circulation that never actually made it into circulation.

There was case in the USA not so long ago where a couple found gold coins buried in a tin on their property from the late 1890's to early 1900's.

They were very rare US Mint (San Francisco) coins they were practically still in mint condition.

 

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/554182/20140530/california-couple-19th-century-rare-gold-coins.htm

 

I guess in 100 years from now some of out silver or gold could be deemed numismatic. :-)

[Ares]

There's cases of bank vaults in the 60s in the US were cracked open and thousands upon thousands of Morgans almost in mint state were released onto the market, in a case or two it made a key date a common date.

Not much risk of that happening these days though.

[silversword]

The modern equivalent is Perth mint suddenly finding an excuse to re-mint coins that had already reached their mintage limits 

[Ares]

Yup, i'd imagine so!

 

Any definitions of what is classified as semi-numismatic or not hugely depends on individual preference. The two extremes (numismatic/bullion) are easier.

[Danny-boy]

The modern equivalent is Perth mint suddenly finding an excuse to re-mint coins that had already reached their mintage limits

Which coins do you speak of?

[silversword]

1992, 2004 and 2009 Kookaburra were supposedly re-minted in subsequent years to bring production up to the stated mintage limit. Privy marked Lunar Series II Dragon (200,000 extra 1oz silver coins above the stated limit of 300,000 coins). These are the ones I know of.

[Danny-boy]

1992, 2004 and 2009 Kookaburra were supposedly re-minted in subsequent years to bring production up to the stated mintage limit. Privy marked Lunar Series II Dragon (200,000 extra 1oz silver coins above the stated limit of 300,000 coins). These are the ones I know of.

You said they re-minted coins that had already reached their mintage limits.

The kooks were retrospectively minted up to their mintage limits, not minted over and above mintage limits.

The lion privy lunar series 2 doesn't really count as it is a different coin, and distinguishable from the non-privy coin. So once again not minted over any mintage limits.

[silversword]

You are being pedantic in the first, and playing semantics in the second. Do you work for them?

 

Re-minting a coin nearly 20 years after it was first produced, up to the original limit, may not be anything wrong technically - no limits are broken. But it is not really right to mint a 1992 coin in 2012.

 

The Lion Privy is the same coin with a minor change to one part, it is essentially the same coin. 

[Danny-boy]

You are being pedantic in the first, and playing semantics in the second. Do you work for them?

Re-minting a coin nearly 20 years after it was first produced, up to the original limit, may not be anything wrong technically - no limits are broken. But it is not really right to mint a 1992 coin in 2012.

The Lion Privy is the same coin with a minor change to one part, it is essentially the same coin.

SS, I don't think I'm being pedantic.

You said they minted over mintage limits, which I was unaware of, so I asked which coin you were referring to.

Neither of the coins in your response were minted over the mintage limits.

With regard to your comment on the lunar series 2, I would note the only thing that changes on a maple / eagle is the date. It's a minor change, but a different coin.

All I'm saying on the lion privy is that it is not the exact same coin, and can be differentiated so far as a collector-value is concerned. The kooks can't be differentiated, and I understand the uproar when they started re-minting them. It was very naughty, but they didn't exceed the mintage limit when you stated that they did.

I'm not arguing, I started off by asking the question because I was interested in the coins you were talking about.

[silversword]

I should have said "re-minting coins that had ceased production" - that would have been more accurate. One tends to think that after a run has ended and a new year has begun, that the mintage for the old year is completed and that that is the final number.

 

And apologies if my tone came across as aggressive; re-reading above it may have seemed that way, certainly not intended. 

[Danny-boy]

One tends to think that after a run has ended and a new year has begun, that the mintage for the old year is completed and that that is the final number.

I, like you, think this is exactly the way it should be.

Sadly not in some cases.

And apologies if my tone came across as aggressive; re-reading above it may have seemed that way, certainly not intended.

No apologies needed, a healthy debate keeps the mind stimulated.

[Cornishfarmer]

If I'm buying What should the price difference be it a privy coin? If the original has a mintage of 300k and privy say 200k is the privy worth more in the long run?

[Danny-boy]

If I'm buying What should the price difference be it a privy coin? If the original has a mintage of 300k and privy say 200k is the privy worth more in the long run?

It's not only supply but demand.

I'd assume the privy are in less demand and worth less.

[strenue]

Lunar Privy coins do tend to be less than non-privy Lunar coins.

Some people don't see the point of the privy mark.

I personally quite like them. :-)

[Danny-boy]

I personally quite like them. :-)

Me too.

I actually wish they'd go back and do the other series 2 1oz privies so I could have a full set.