Unknown Maker WV

[Buffy]

Hello all,

I hope I am Ok just jumping in here!
I have a silver "Prince George" engraved on one side and a ship on the other side, teapot. 
*edit* it's 1790 mark "P"
My problem is the makers stamp, it's "WV" in a rectangle shape stamp.

Any idea's?

[Jester]

Hi Buffy...thanks for stopping by our little corner of the world.  @BackyardBullion is one of our resident Silversmiths and subject matter expert on assay marks.  I know it would help us tremendously if you could upload a pic or two.  Although, as sharp as BYB is, he may be able to help just from the description.  Good luck in your search!

[BackyardBullion]

49 minutes ago, Buffy said:

Hello all,

I hope I am Ok just jumping in here!
I have a silver "Prince George" engraved on one side and a ship on the other side, teapot. 
*edit* it's 1790 mark "P"
My problem is the makers stamp, it's "WV" in a rectangle shape stamp.

Any idea's?

A picture would be very helpful - and do you know which assay office it is from?

[sixgun]

Anything like this?

http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48219

 

[Buffy]

Yes! thank you sixgun,

sorry I'll attach a pic ...
It's only a mobile pic, hope it is clear.

I could only find "WV&S" on googling :/

[BackyardBullion]

http://www.silvercollection.it/Englishsilvermarks3TUTTO.html

Best I can find - would seem to be William Vincent - fits with the year date letter. 

WT over LB (William Theobalds & Lockington Bunn [ L ] ) 19th c./1st half WT over RA (William Theobalds & Robert Metcalfe Atkinson [ L ] ) 19th c./1st half W.T.S (W T Staniforth [ S ]) 20th c./1st half W.T.T & Co (W T Toghill & Co [ B ]) 20th c./1st half W.T.W into three circles (W T Wiseman [ B ]) 20th c./1st half W over T.W over W (Thomas Whipham & William Williams [ L ] ) 18th c./1st half WV (William Vincent [ L ]) 18th c./2nd half W.V & S into an oblong chamfered rectangle (William Vale & Sons [ B ][ C ][ S ]) end 19th c./beginning 20th c. WV NB and English Lion passant (William Norris Venning [CANADA]) 1813-1871 WW into a trefoil (William Williamson [ D ]) 18th c./1st half WW (William Woodward [ L ]) 18th c./2nd half WW (William Ward [ D ]) end 18th c. WW (William Welch, junior [ EX ]) beginning 19th c. WW (gothic) (William Woodman [ EX ] ) 19th c./1st half WW into a rectangle (William Woodman [ EX ] ) 19th c./1st half W.W into a heart (William Williams [ B ]) beginning 20th c. W.W in script (Walter H Willson Ltd [ L ]) 20th c./2nd half

[sixgun]

Yes i saw the William Vincent maker's make listed. There is no image of the style of the mark so i tried to find images of this mark and discovered it is probably the Canadian silversmith W. Venning. Very interesting. The forum post covers this in more detail. 

[Buffy]

Canadian settled in London?

it was my Grandparents, probably my Grandfather who was 2nd in charge of the Dutch navy, he used to pick up bit's n bobs from other boats and ports. He was born 1801 so I'm trying to piece it together!

*edit* ah yes, that post was the first thing I looked at still ... *shrug*

Thank you  

[sixgun]

7 minutes ago, Buffy said:

Canadian settled in London?

it was my Grandparents, probably my Grandfather who was 2nd in charge of the Dutch navy, he used to pick up bit's n bobs from other boats and ports. He was born 1801 so I'm trying to piece it together!

*edit* ah yes, that post was the first thing I looked at still ... *shrug*

Thank you  

You will find the maker's mark on a different section of the website Backyard Bullion posted. So the chap was in Halifax, Nova Scotia. It is a pseudo-British hallmark, it looks like it should be a British mark but it isn't. i don't think you mean your granddad - if he was born in 1801 he is likely a great great granddad, or maybe more than that. He may have picked the item up on a trip to Canada, Halifax is a busy port so it is quite likely a seaman would have visited and certainly had contact with someone who had. 

http://www.silvercollection.it/CANADASILVERSMITHSV.html

 

[Buffy]

That's great! thank you

Definitely my grandfather 1901 ... typo >.<

 

[Buffy]

Sorry Jester, just saw your post! I will look by thank you

[JungleJim65]

I found a book on google books which has a picture of the hallmark. 

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=X5QrAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=william+vincent+silver&source=bl&ots=sSzi6AQ_Z6&sig=o1DayWy2mud5b9KmsrA-DRA-pEI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJqqKLqp3WAhXENSYKHV3tDNg4ChDoAQgqMAI#v=onepage&q=william vincent silver&f=false

[Buffy]

Excellent work Sherlock!

 

[sixgun]

Well this is a London mark - the mystery deepens. Did he emigrate to Canada?

So since this indicates a London mark, let's take this up another level. 

http://www.antiques.com/classified/17939/Georgian-sterling-tea-caddy-caddies-William-Vincent

Will you send a photo of the whole piece?

[Buffy]

Oh but they are beautiful! I've found the full book, reading through
This is engraved as opposed to that wonderful work. I'll post pics but! They are unclean :/

It's mobile pics again but the white paper helps I think >.<

Can I clean it safely in any way? or should that be a professional job?

I'm reading to find more about him, I wonder how my grandfather did come to posses this.

[Buffy]

Looking into old London I believe St. Annes Lane was Aldgate way, right in the City of London

[sixgun]

http://auctions.bidsquare.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/1507/lot/524727/?url=/view-auctions/catalog/id/1507/

This is your teapot by the looks of it. Notice they have left the teapot uncleaned.

A similar style on sale on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-Fine-Georgian-Silver-Teapot-London-1799-Peter-and-Anne-Bateman-/112558625784?hash=item1a350453f8:g:E0AAAOSwHnFVpCG4

I would defer to others about cleaning, i am not expert in cleaning silver, tbh i don't clean valuable silver and by the looks of it this could be a valuable item - there is information here. 

http://www.925-1000.com/aPolish.html

[Murph]

I don't usually use anything more abrasive than goddards silver polish but that would take a lot of work to clean up.

 

Here's a picture of a William Vincent mark and dates online:

http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Makers/London-WT-WZ.html#WV

 

[Murph]

What made anyone think it wasn't a London mark?  The only pseudo mark I saw on this thread was posted by sixgun?  The op's picture was clearly a London mark with the date they mentioned.

[Buffy]

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

http://auctions.bidsquare.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/1507/lot/524727/?url=/view-auctions/catalog/id/1507/

This is your teapot by the looks of it. Notice they have left the teapot uncleaned.

A similar style on sale on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-Fine-Georgian-Silver-Teapot-London-1799-Peter-and-Anne-Bateman-/112558625784?hash=item1a350453f8:g:E0AAAOSwHnFVpCG4

I would defer to others about cleaning, i am not expert in cleaning silver, tbh i don't clean valuable silver and by the looks of it this could be a valuable item - there is information here. 

http://www.925-1000.com/aPolish.html

By jove that is so close to it! but I have dark wood handles, and engravings (hard to see!) Prince George with the ship itself on the other side.

Guessing it does have value! 

Still, intrigued by the life of William Vincent .... Veith, William vincent? and my grandfather ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damiaen_Joan_van_Doorninck did they pass in person? how, what why and when? You always want the stories, when they're gone >.<

Maybe I could use goddards cloth enough to reveal the engraving a tad more?

[sixgun]

The 'P' year mark indicates the teapot was made in 1790. It is 227 years old. William Vincent would have been long gone by your granddad's time.

http://www.925-1000.com/dlc_london.html

I see the webpage i posted a link to about cleaning silver suggests something like Twinkle Silver Cream which is very mild. 

http://www.925-1000.com/aPolish.html

 

[Buffy]

2 hours ago, sixgun said:

The 'P' year mark indicates the teapot was made in 1790. It is 227 years old. William Vincent would have been long gone by your granddad's time.

http://www.925-1000.com/dlc_london.html

I see the webpage i posted a link to about cleaning silver suggests something like Twinkle Silver Cream which is very mild. 

http://www.925-1000.com/aPolish.html

 

Of course >.< not reading through properly there :/ still more to discover here!

[Murph]

18 hours ago, shortstack68 said:

Judging by the middle stamp (George III) this type of stamp would originate around the 1790s and this bust was stamped into Spanish silver (8 Reales normally) which was crown sized which was raided from the Spanish Galleons due to the shortage of silver at the time. These had the bust of the Spanish King with a small countermark to denote it  was British, see attached picture of one

 

If you look at the page I linked you'll see it was used from 1786 to 1820 for London dates.  Of course lots of smiths, especially provincial ones, used to avoid duty so don't have these stamps.

[Murph]

The duty mark was introduced in 1784 and ran until nearly the end of the 19th century  iirc.

Just checked Jacksons which says 1 December 1784 was when duty was reintroduced at 6d per oz and the mark was used until may 1890 (for London at least.)