Neilcollier

Dear all, first time poster, but I have been lurking around for a while.
In the life before Brexit, life was simple. You paid VAT at the going rate anywhere in the EU, and then brought the goods back in, possibly using the two stage delivery method if ordering from Estonia, or if you had them in person, no issues. Gold of course is VAT free everywhere and remains VAT free, but silver and platinum, have always had VAT added on, but this is where it gets interesting. I remember being offered some "second hand" britannias in London for the first time and saying "Why are they 10% more than the brand new ones?" and then discovering that they were VAT free, so for me, they were 10% cheaper. As my knowledge grew about the use of marginal schemes, I discovered that various countries had some very compelling marginal VAT schemes for second hand bullion, and I had much joy with goldsilver in Belgium (although note that some buyers had issues).
So I am the sort of person who believes "Tax Avoidance is fine, Tax Evasion is illegal, so don't do it" and I was looking to clarify how everything actually works post brexit with respect to importing. It's slightly more fun as my brother lives in Germany, so can collect and hold goods for me, but both of us have jobs where it would be very bad if we were found to be breaking the law, and we wouldn't want to either. The question is, just what is the law now? And this is where I have got to in getting to chapter and verse from HMRC ... and how they are avoiding answering my direct questions.
I have spent many hours on the phone to HMRC and written many versions of the email below. To date, I have not got a straight answer. The email below is one such example and that response took 6 weeks.
So here is the problem: Before Brexit, I could visit my brother in Germany, we would go to coin fairs and buy some interesting collectible coins in Silver and Platinum (Gold is not worth mentioning - it's VAT free - end of story). So the first place you need to go is to HMRC and discover the classification code for these items. Precious metal coins are covered by code 7118900000. There is no duty to pay, but it gets slightly interesting in that this states that the VAT rate is either 0% or 20%. Hmmm .... one of those I like, and one of those I don't.
So your next stage is to work out which rate applies and when and the advice page for the commodity is here https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/7118900000?country=FR&currency=EUR
That isn't much use, but it refers you to additional guidance here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-and-services#introduction
And there is no killer paragraph in it which says "UK silver/platinum bullion coins that are legal tender are subject to VAT at the rate of 0% or 20%"
However, the most relevant notice is probably https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70149-finance/vat-notice-70149-finance which sits alongside the exceptional note on Gold Coins - so by inference (which is dangerous); Gold Coins are the exception and so Silver and Platinum coins would be covered by the rule.
In this impenetrable tome, section 2 reads “References to money in this notice include currency, bank notes and coins, in sterling or any other currency used as legal tender in a financial transaction, but not, with effect from 1 July 2006, platinum nobles.”
Now, this is really interesting because it explicitly excludes the Isle of Man's platinum noble, which then by inference would include a platinum/silver britannia . No further mention is made as to why the noble is excluded, but it's probably because in the IoM they were doing good business selling said coins VAT free and us main landers were splitting the difference with the local mint (who chipped into the IoM treasury for their rights to do this business and HMRC to exception). In section 2.6, it refers to a business buying and selling and the marginal scheme. However I am not a business, and do not actively buy or sell aside from collecting and so this does not apply. 
If they are classed as cash as section 2 implies, then I would not even have to declare them, but then some coins do have VAT on them. But if I as a buyer have paid VAT, either at 20% in most of Europe and the UK for new items, or at effectively 0% under the marginal scheme, would I be asked to pay again at the border, and if I purchased the item in the UK under the marginal scheme rules, in effect it is still VAT free even today (follow Chard's second hand bullion for the odd gem cropping up - and plenty of overpriced nonsense)
So I phoned HMRC and literally got passed around for 3 hours before they cut me off. It was interesting, I could not get a straight answer. Then I used the various email routes that are supposed to respond within 14 days, and in reality take 6-12 weeks. They also fobbed me off with a specific clear answer.
My question is: What happens if I buy new or second-hand silver and platinum coins in the EU and bring them back to the UK? 
Worst case: Buy a coin for £1,000 in Germany new, pay 20%, net outgoings, £1,200. Arrive at UK customs … “Ello ello, that’s a fine coin, I must add 20% VAT to it.”. I have now spent £1440 in total on something that would have cost me £1,200 in the UK. Clearly a poor proposition, especially if there is a fine for not declaring this – and the rules for this are also vague. Bad case: I could reclaim the 0% VAT paid on say a margin scheme in Belgium, but my revenue officer in Calais says "Hmm, nice coins, 20% VAT please" Best case: Buy a second hand coin in Belgium for £1,000 under the marginal scheme, I arrive at UK customs … “Ello ello, that’s a fine proof UK legal tender coin, no need to VAT, so on your way, and by the way, as it's legal tender and cash - you didn't even have to declare it to me.” Once COVID is done, I will drive to Berlin, and visit my brother. On the way back, I want to stop in Belgium and pick up in effect VAT free UK CGT exempt second hand platinum coins (and 2 bottles of wine and a bottle of JD). HMRC are however unable to tell me if I even need to make a declaration at the border (as if it is cash, I do not); and how to decide whether the 0% rate or 20% rate in their own guidance will apply.
To be honest, HMRC have very complex rules and you can’t be intuitive and hope. For example, I love that VAT on prawn crackers made from tapioca is applied at a 0% rate, and yet when they are made from potato starch, they are 20% rated. Unless of course you serve your prawn crackers hot, and in which case, they attract 20% regardless of whether they are tapioca or potato derived, but if you buy them fresh and hot, and they then are likely to go cold before eating at home or at another place, they are rated at 0%. With rules like that, how can anyone make sense of the impenetrable silver and platinum VAT guidance for people who are not in business (the business rules are actually quite clear).
So, I have a) written to HMRC's complaints department as they have not answered a very specific question and in effect referred me back to the generic advice that is ambiguous; and b) escalated to my MP, who I know quite well ... and wait for an answer.
I am not a betting man, but I think that HMRC's guidance as it stands will lead to a similar situation that applied when buying tobacco and wine pre-Brexit. Here, if you buy it at arms length and send it via a courier or use an agent then you get into a lot of trouble. However as second hand silver and platinum in both the UK and EU is covered by VAT under a marginal scheme where this is only on the profit, and the amount paid is hidden from you as a consumer, you are unable to make an reclaim of that from the EU, and if HMRC were to tax you, it should be on that basis - and I predict that "If I drive to Belgium, buy some silver/platinum, then bring it back myself, I don't have to declare it (HMRC cash rule); there is no VAT due (HMRC 0% rate applied on second hand item or marginal scheme applies) and finally, I will have to "not sell or distribute said coins to other people for a period of 12 months" as this is what happens when you are an expat and return to the UK with a bunch of second hand items you've acquired during your time overseas (Form TOR01) and relocate to the UK.
I think the answer is already in all of the HMRC guidance notes, but you have to use the exceptions to validate the rules, and the thought of banter with a customs office at 3AM with my wife and children in the car on the finer points of what is money, legal tender, commodity bullion and so on fills me with dread, and I am not the kind of person to be found on the wrong side of the law and smuggling.
Who wants me to post my answer when I get it? (I've been at this now for 12 weeks and I think I know how to eventually burst this bubble for once and for all - but if you read stuff on bulletin boards like this, I just see it as ideas for testing with the competent authorities as it is your reputation that is on the line, not this boards)

Yes, I am consistently getting silver into the UK,  but I think it's a bit unfair to suggest I'm avoiding paying the vat,😁 
 I expect customs to do there job and add the correct amount of vat 
But I see it like this.
25 x1,oz brittanias from chards  last week cost £598 or £23.92 per coin + 20% vat = £717 + £8 postage total   £725.60
25 x 1,oz brittanias from Europe last week cost £592.75 or £23.71 per coin,  if vat is added @20% = £711.30 + £11 postage  total £722.30
So I can buy my own currency from another country, and save £3.30.
The vat on the Chards purchase is 100% guaranteed so £725.60 all in.
The vat on the European purchase is not 100% guaranteed and in theory could cost as little as £622.28 if 5% vat is added.
A saving of £103.32 on the Chards purchase, or £4.12 per coin, which almost removes the sellers premiums
Let's say i buy 4 tubes, I either save £13 or £413.00, this equates to 17.4 oz of free silver compared to the UK price.
But like I said before the vat is there to be paid at whatever amount 20% or 5% it's just not my decision 😁😁
 
 
 
 

Summed that up nicely

Another example of "Free trade" just not being free in any way shape or form
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55734277
 

Once you add vat and delivery its still cheaper to buy from uk and everythings in stock? Sounds fishy lol be carefull.

Please @people ... if you find a good (UK) deal, feel free to post the link. We are struggling over here for toilet paper, and affordable Silver,

Not in uk but it says it delivers based in china i think? Has anyone ordered from here before seems like a good offer they have on and backed by paypal protection so cant be all bad? Anyone?
 
https://vindblomst.com/products/eagle?variant=32479491162252